Balancing Passion, Ethics, and Conservation in Modern Hunting

Speaker 2: 0:21

Welcome back to Guarancy Outdoors of Podcast presented by Boon Rocks Hunting. I'm your host, mike Nitre. I'm Peyton Smith.

Speaker 3: 0:28

I'm Frank Bistica and Steve Molnar.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Welcome back everyone. You know we got our. We're getting a close to the season. These weekly updates are slowly coming down to close. We got some great snow action. I can't say I had great action, steve had great action, frank had good action. I cannot say but one. Before we even start, we had to move Peyton to the injured reserve and he's going to be out for we don't know how long Peyton will give us the news.

Speaker 1: 1:07

Yeah. So I thought I just had like a little back sprain using bad squat form and turns out I herniated the disc in my lower back. So I'm probably going to have to take it easy on the deer hunting for a little while, kind of communicate to my physical therapist what that entailed, and they didn't seem all too keen on the idea of that being a good idea. And especially it also seems like an ethical problem to me where, you know, I know I got buddies that would help me, you know if I did harvest one. But it just seems unethical to harvest something you don't have the physical means of dragging out yourself. So you know, we'll see later in the week, even if it's just, you know, going out with Mike and doing some filming definitely can still goose hunt, but yeah, shooting something I can't drag out if I needed to just feels wrong to me.

Speaker 1: 2:01

So, aside from you know the potential discomfort and risk to make it worse, so Want to heal up. Had a good season so far. So, you know, got a long turkey season coming up, got a lot of fishing to do, so we'll see what the next couple weeks do.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Only in New Jersey I got till February, so yeah, and you know, something that we talked about on the phone was that you had a successful season, so why jeopardize, you know?

Speaker 3: 2:34

Quit why season?

Speaker 2: 2:34

why jeopardize maybe next year to you know, gosh forbid. You know, then the day it's not as bad as it could be, so like, let's, we're good. You know, if we're talking about any other sport, we're already in the playoffs. You're already in the playoffs. You had a phenomenal. You know regular season. So like we're already there, don't screw up something and just take the time to heal. And you know, like you said, you know you can either come out and film. You know we have, till the second week of February, turkey seasons literally right around the corner, you know, and then we'll be back in the deer woods and honestly, no time soon.

Speaker 1: 3:15

So like yeah, and there's going to be some late season scouting spots that I know me and you've talked about hitting, so you know whether that be late season scouting, shed haunting. You know I'll get back out soon. It's already bothering me. I wanted to go today, was planning on going today. I thought it was just smaller sprain. Sit down, look at the MRIs and like, oh, this probably means this is not a good idea. My, my doctor, probably probably not. I'm not entirely sure what this entails, but you definitely can't drag anything, okay alright, guys.

Speaker 2: 3:48

Well, steve's having some audio difficulties and camera difficulties. I guess you'll be right back. But you know, peyton, we hope you heal up pretty quickly, you know at least. At least this is something that happened at the end of the season, not in the beginning or the main part of this, you know. So it's just. It's just one of the things and it was a you're working out to was it had nothing to do with hunting related or anything like that right?

Speaker 1: 4:19

No, no, nothing hunting related. I was just in the gym and they totally my fault. But yeah, we'll see. We'll see full, take it. It's getting better. So physical therapy helps. They get seriously do my exercises and yeah, I got a doctor thinks I'll be back and forget that this ever happened. So it's always good news doing that nagging back issue. So I want to take that seriously. And we could see Steve now perfectly so you're on the app now alright and I think you're on and the audio is crystal clear there you go.

Speaker 2: 4:55

That's great. Everyone, we're all gonna have to get really nice cameras like these, because now you're putting us to shame.

Speaker 4: 5:01

I'm jealous man, I can hey, hey, if I get it to work I'll switch back to the computer. It's fine, it's just no problem. Oh man, baby steps, baby steps.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Yeah, yeah. So, frank, yes, what's it? Look like the last week that you've been out. You know you got some action. It's just the same thing that you've been dealing with. You talk to us in the chat every day. It's the classic hunting situation when you're not in the woods, they're there, and when you're in the woods, they're. They're MIA.

Speaker 3: 5:35

Yeah, no, it means basically been the same thing. You know, I got like at least five shooters still on my list that I know are alive. Nobody's got them, it's just every time I'm not there, every time like it, they'll show up the day before and I go out and I don't. I don't see them, unfortunately. But I did try something different on Saturday morning. So instead of going in the dark, I went first light this time and I just went nice and slow, took my time.

Speaker 3: 6:08

I was in the tree stand five minutes and I see my first doe coming right over my tracks. So I was like all right, this is a good sign. But she was all by herself. So I was like all right, I thought about taking a shot because she was only within. I think she was like 26 yards, but I don't know. Those bucks are still in the back of my head. She kept turning and looking and turn. I was like no, there's got to be more coming. And she, she walked past me. Another think.

Speaker 3: 6:41

Like five, ten minutes later, right across from me, there's like real thick, like nasty shit, small cedars, real thick stuff that I know. That's that's where they always come from, that's where they always go and I could just see legs and bodies coming. I was like all right, now we're getting in some action. And it was just literally dough after dough after dough there's and the 13 those came out before I saw my first buck. He was a who's, a small four corn at first, and then I was like all right, so they, basically they went around me, they still, they stayed out probably about I want to say, like 70 yards.

Speaker 3: 7:26

And then I seen, I seen another body come and that was like one of my shooters. He's a big seven. So I was like all right, I was already. I was like here we go, because he was coming down a complete same area, but who's coming down a completely different trail and he was directly facing me. So I thought we were in good shape. And turns out that he turned me. Look that he saw them, he stood, he stood there about 60 yards, it was just watching the other deer and he just ended up turning and going with them and then they basically went to a, into a swamp and I could still see them about. They were about 150 yards and then they just turned. They went right back the way they came from. So that was disappointing, yeah, yeah so great action, yeah and then

Speaker 2: 8:22

you're a paid for some, for some of that deer action running around yeah, yeah, as, almost as perfect as a hunt could go, like the game plan worked. You know, you just like you know how hunting is, just got to close, that like you were in the ballpark. You know, and that's the most important thing, and you know, as hunters, and all about killing, you know just our Jesus, peyton and I will, you know we've, will kill for that, because we just have not seen the number of deer like years in the past and like we've really struggled this year to, and which is crazy to say, because Peyton's killed what? Two or three deer, but all in on Maryland, you know. So you know we've, we've struggled a little bit, but it's always just eye opening and it just makes you, makes you push more. And now the cool thing, frank, is you know now that you're getting into a saddle.

Speaker 3: 9:17

Yep, you know yeah, now you make those.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Yeah, now you're gonna be able to make those adjustments, like, alright, like I love having my stands up and set and you work around around those. You know now you can be like, alright, we're gonna try something different. You know you could have walked in slowly and then set up, you know, in a different area, or you could have gone in at the same time you normally would, but just set up in a different tree. Now you have the. You know you have the options. It's it's unlimited right there for you and you know those game time decisions that you're making and after hunting everything, the saddles are complete.

Speaker 2: 9:50

Or you know, you do what Steve did and anyone out there and you get, you know, a very light platform. You know which lone wolf does have and it's kind of like doing the same thing where it's you're still available. You still can move a lot easier than you would with those old husky lock on stands that weigh like 40 pounds of the sticks and everything like this. So everything is literally such a lighter set up that like it's truly it works in our favor. I'll definitely say that yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:21

I learned definitely excited.

Speaker 4: 10:24

I learned a lot this past week just with the lone wolf. My first sit with that tried to do a hybrid with the saddle because I didn't have like a full safety harness, because I've only ever saddle hunted and I did not like that, I think really. But yeah, not right off the bat, maybe because there was too much else going on between the snow and everything else. I just, you know it's cold, didn't have a baby set up as well as I could have, and there's going to be a lot more, you know, messing around with that and trying to figure out what works best. But I can also see the advantages of just using a safety harness in that way as well. So I mean just, there's too many options honestly. Yeah, you can get. You can really get in the weeds with it.

Speaker 2: 11:16

So I, yeah, I will. I will say like I was really looking forward to eventually getting a hybrid like that. Or, you know, using my hang on stands that already have set up in place and stuff like that. Sometimes it's like, oh, why do you need to? Because you know I do have the harness and everything like that. But like you think, oh, there's more of a platform. So now, did you set it up like you would be sitting in a normal tree stand or did you set it up like you would be in an actual saddle and you'd kind of have the tree in front of you?

Speaker 4: 11:46

yeah, I set it up and my reasoning I set it up as a normal tree stand and my reasoning behind it was the whole idea behind getting something other than a platform for like a hybrid style or just even just this time of year in general is I know that, like I love saddle hunting 100%, but I know I move a lot when I'm in that saddle and when you have the coverage and or if you're up high enough or whatever, but this late season you just can't do it.

Speaker 4: 12:20

And I honestly it's kind of interesting with with my hunt this past week, this past Friday, because I really was of this opinion like oh, you know, you can't, just you can't just sit still and the deer won't see you, like even with poor, poor coverage, and I and I did, I I just sat completely still and they came in now they did obviously they never crossed that stream, but they they never saw me just by not moving and I just I found that so bizarre. I'm like, well, sir, how can I not see me when there's literally no foliage anywhere, there's no coverage at all? But a lot of these guys that I've been following on, you know, instagram or different platforms, you know they, they talk about that heavily, especially in this late season.

Speaker 2: 13:12

I guess I'm a believer now, so yeah, hi, yeah, I'll agree with you and you know it's something we'll definitely dive into in another episode because you know something that you know Well, a topic that we'll do once in the offseason you know how do we pick a tree, how do we get it set up and everything. So that's gonna be part of it. From it all, you have different setups from the early season to, you know, the rut, to the, to the late season, everything like that, because the woods are always changing, you know, and so many different things changes throughout your, your hunting season. So each, each time period is just going to be different, you know, and part of it is like, yeah, you get away with a lot during the early season, a hundred percent it. I agree with you. I fidget a little more, I think, in the saddle than I do would in a stand, absolutely, you got to adjust to get comfortable way.

Speaker 2: 14:00

Yeah, yeah and also I think you get too comfortable and you get too relaxed to where you forget sometimes that you're hunting like Totally agree.

Speaker 4: 14:09

Yeah, I feel like a kid on a swing in the playground. That's like I can see.

Speaker 2: 14:20

It's, it's dangerous, it is. It look so frank and anyone who's looking you know. Getting into anything like that it's great, it's highly addicting, it's honestly my favorite thing to use. But on those very long sits, like you, we get bored. The it is Everything's kicking up and then you're literally. It's like you're in a swing set, like you could do so much, and then sometimes I'll literally be catching myself. I'll have the phone up here and I'm like wee and I'm like, oh wait, I'm actually hunting. I'm like I got it, like you got to stop and you'll move at the worst time. And that is something that happens in a tree stand to don't get me wrong. Yeah, of course it's. But I swear like because you're especially if you have deer coming out from it, you're using the tree to block. The tree is a great silhouette for you.

Speaker 2: 15:11

Where it just You're not gonna be able to see but it also works against you because you sometimes, if you're not paying attention, you can't see what's in front of you, and then you're doing stupid stuff or you're setting something up or whatever, and boom, then you know there could be an eight-pointer, there could be something you know, you never know. So it is the yeah one of the things to everyone file to you know yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:34

You know it's like if you're in a tree stand, you're sitting down, you are tucked in right against that trunk. But you know, no matter how I like to Stand close to the trunk, but even at my closest like it, I'm still, you know, leaned out at least. You know a good bit. You know, whereas I'm like this and the tree would be here, I'm still, you know, making my profile bigger and so they catch you from the side. You can definitely see how that could be in irregularity.

Speaker 4: 16:04

But yeah, my father was preaching that to me like so hard when I was getting into saddle hunting. He's like you know, it just seems kind of odd. You know, you're just hanging out there and that's not how trees grow. You know, like that's not natural and the deer are gonna see that. And if you have a platform, at least you have something underneath you if they're looking up and like I fall him back and forth on it. And now, after three seasons of saddle hunting and the experience that I have this past week, I'm like all right that maybe maybe you got something, maybe got something there?

Speaker 1: 16:36

Yeah, I do think there is something to that. Now, does the I guess the pro outweigh the con there? Right? Like, if I wasn't running a saddle I probably wouldn't have killed my bear this year? Right, because, like, how I like to hunt is Find the sign set up on the side, and the best way to do that is if you're saddle hunting. So I hiked in, you know, as Mike knows and everybody's heard this story, found the hot food source, knew they were coming back, set up right on it and tagged out 30 minutes later. You know, and you can't do that if you're going in and hanging a tree stand or you know, and if you're in a climber, you I wouldn't be able to get into that tree. So and I wouldn't have gone that far, probably carrying the heavy.

Speaker 3: 17:24

That's. That's huge for me, yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:26

Yeah, and then the profile is something you work on, you get, you know, you adjust to, you know, but the one thing I know this will be lasting before you know. We move on, because what we'll definitely dive more about this, like the tree that I'm in today, it actually breaks off, so it goes up and then it continues and then it has a nice like thick branch that comes up like this. So I actually tucked right in between there, so I'm in between this, the tree, and a nice thick branch come early season. I already said, like this, I'm going to be working off of this tree come early season, like it is right in a thicket, the trails, like I and I've known about this.

Speaker 2: 18:05

This is where I miss, you know, this is where this, that big buck Kong, came from and I just couldn't get a shot off of him when he came, when he came out a couple seasons ago.

Speaker 2: 18:15

You know, you know what? There's three beds right right behind where I, where I set up too, so they use this a lot and getting in there during the early season is going to be a huge difference. And you know, the only time, you know, I was in a different tree during the rut and, of course, when my hunt was coming to an end, I actually was packing up and right when I was packing up, a nice size buck was Coming right through and I could hear his antlers hitting right off the brush because that's how thick it is. And then I just, you know, he just took off and I was like, ah, like, if I was in the tree that was in now, I actually probably would have been able to see him coming just a little bit before. You know, he came out. But Using those unique trees are always great and something you can't use with this tree, stand you can't well you.

Speaker 2: 19:00

You can, you know, use it with the tree stand. Definitely can't with a climber, you know tree stand. It may be a little annoying but you might be able to work where where you can get something like that but saddle a hundred percent. You can work with any of those trees like that and it does real well.

Speaker 1: 19:20

How do you go about?

Speaker 1: 19:22

And this is something that I've Struggled with and I was hunting this piece in Maryland that just had these like scrub oaks and I was on this ridge and, and you know, try to find, snake my way through this scrub oak and what I ended up doing is I can only get three sticks high and there was all these limbs coming out as a pinnacle, but it was like the type where it's just Branches everywhere and I'm climbing up through the canopy and it had a hole in it, but the branches.

Speaker 1: 19:54

Getting your linemen's belt up. So I I ended up doing was probably not the best thing and I would unclip and climb At the base of the branches a little bit. But other times I've Left my belt in, clipped, actually attached the tether rope Above my head, clipped into clipping to both, then unclip the belt, climb up to the tether rope and then clip my belt back on and just kind of. You know very how I'm releasing the attention, but Some always wonder how other people do it, because I've done it a few different ways, some super safe and some not as safe.

Speaker 2: 20:29

But my personal opinion. Right, there is everything you just said. I imagine almost every hunter hunter does right and your best friend when you're being mobile is the handheld saw. You know that sometimes I break stuff, sometimes I'll saw stuff sometimes Unclip and I'll just, you know, and Honestly, I think you take a poll of how many hunters do that. I'd say probably 90%, maybe even more, because it seems like everyone. I type like, yeah, you know, I do that, or they'll get so comfortable they won't climb up without a harness or Whatever and anything like that. So like I think it's way more common than you think, because what your mind says. I'm only going up a little bit and then I'm clipping right back in.

Speaker 2: 21:18

You know no one's thinking of, we're not climbing all the way up, you know, we're just literally on Undoing moving it up a little bit, clipping back in. I do like the one where you, you know, you put it up back up top and then you'll unclip, so you're always the only thing what that is is like leapfrog in the ropes, but you know time. Consuming.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Yeah, you get and that and then yep you get so, but that is when you fall.

Speaker 2: 21:45

Yeah, 100%, 100%. So the safest way should be you know that way. But you know people are gonna and I get it because I'm I do it too, not saying it's smartest, but sometimes I do that one and then sometimes I don't have the time, especially if it's a hot hunt or you know You're in a thick it or it's. You know you want to be as quick, as quiet as possible. So sometimes you're just like alright, let me just real quick take that off and just put it up and boom, I'm back up and climbing and if I have to do it again, you just do it again real quick, boom, and you set up. That's in. If you guys got any other ways I don't think there's really any other ways you could really pick up.

Speaker 4: 22:23

I mean, I can tell you that I I probably I Unfortunately had a blistering amount of unsafe Choices last season and I scaled way back this year. You know it became a lot more responsible about how I climbed and, like you were talking about limbs and carrying us all that. I have us all on my pack. It's always in my pack and it's only about this big. It's a small little hand, saw, I can't remember which one of the companies makes it, but I Will cut an entire highway through limbs now on my way up if I have to, and it's been working. It's been working out great. But I mean the sketchiest.

Speaker 4: 23:06

The sketchiest that I did this year was it was the absolute perfect tree for rut.

Speaker 4: 23:11

It was a tree it was oak that came straight up and there was a why a huge why tree that Actually had De-rooted and fallen against it and it just split and it came through basically just like this, or sorry, just like this, and it came right through and I was right, talked, right up in that corner, but I had to go up between and I had to throw up my rope around In order to get up, and what I did at the time was I actually the sticks that I put above me. I actually clipped into my stick Right around. Right around the stick is absolutely least I had something. While while I was putting the the bell around, I just took my, I literally took my bridge and I just tethered to the stick that was above me that I was setting at the time and that's the only other thing, and I can't even say how safe that was. Maybe just made me feel a little better, but that was the closest thing I got to being in a quote-unquote safe, safer situation.

Speaker 1: 24:13

I Can't say that you probably shouldn't do that, that it probably is not approved and I would never advise anyone to do that. But I can say that it did fall and my bridge caught on the Step my last, my top stick and it caught me. Oh wow, this year and I only talked about it on the pod and I switched platform. Since then I was running a crappy platform that kicked out and Got covered. That. But yeah, I mean, that is, it did catch me. So they are strong. It is really good material at all steel.

Speaker 4: 24:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean I'm not condoning that whatsoever, no, it's a terrible idea. We were specifically talking about things not to do.

Speaker 3: 25:01

This is all helpful, guys.

Speaker 4: 25:04

Absolutely there is. I mean, you go online. There is absolutely a right way and a wrong way to climb with a saddle, and you definitely need to to figure that out when you're in the moment, though, before being honest, we might make a few decisions.

Speaker 3: 25:20

We all done it.

Speaker 1: 25:21

Yeah, everybody's like pushed it and you know, gotten lucky, but it's just, yeah, it's not really worth it. You know, don't, don't push it. You know no, if you have to like find a different. Find a different setup. Find a different setup. Yep.

Speaker 2: 25:36

Yep, yep, I definitely agree. But you know, steve, on that, you talked about a little bit your first snow hunt. Oh, yeah, yeah, everything you expected.

Speaker 4: 25:50

Yeah, because the only thing that was missing was the red on white, of course, a beautiful, you know Jackson Pollock, winter, wintery Jackson Pollock. But no, I mean I. The weather was great. It was still snowing all day on Friday when I went out and I Honestly didn't think that I was gonna see anything at all and I was just happy to be out there in the snow, a break and trail, went in, found a tree, hadn't.

Speaker 4: 26:23

This is an area where I'm hunting as a piece of public. I've been scouting late, probably since the beginning of November. Until now I only hunted it two other times Well, one symmetry and two times in a blind had no success. Got scumped all three times actually, but I was having deer on cam. They were just so erratic. One of the big reasons was because it's basically a swamp in there. So with all the rain that we're getting, it was literally flooding six to eight inches over. So hunting it really just, I mean you could hunt it. The deer were still coming in occasionally, but not patternable. So I just wanted to be out there and I knew it was a spot where I could be getting the tree and it was just amazing to be out there, just enjoy that weather and the silence and just the beauty far outweighed whether I was going to see any deer or not. Like I was saying earlier about changing that approach between saddle and hunting in a mobile platform or a mobile stand for the first time and having my back in the tree, just not picking up my phone at all, I knew it was only going to be out there for about three hours and I'm like I can do this. I cannot pick up my phone, I can just shoot a couple of videos when I first get in and then not touch it and just be quiet and really just enjoy this moment, because I don't know if I'll, we don't know if we'll have tomorrow, and I never had this experience before and I just wanted to fully invest, like fully invest myself in the moment. And it paid huge dividends and it was amazing, it was great. And so those deer.

Speaker 4: 28:03

Finally they came to the stream. I actually it was so quiet I didn't hear anything. The first thing that I heard was actually some ice in the stream breaking, and that's how I knew that they were deer there. But from the angle they were coming in, I was not expecting them to be there, and so I'm literally like barely moving my head and like creaning my eyes. I thought my eyes were going to pop out of my head just trying to catch a glimpse of these eight does that had come across. And I finally was like slowly moving enough to where I felt like they. You know, it was slow enough that they wouldn't detect me actually moving, and I was able to see them hanging out and they came right to the creek, but there was enough ice that they didn't want to cross over and so they just slowly ambled back out. They went around and it was great, it was awesome. I loved it, loved every minute of it and hopefully get to do it again next year.

Speaker 2: 29:04

Hopefully hunting in the snow is the best thing. There is nothing like it at the end, and especially when it's snowing, it's so quiet, like it is just, it's peaceful, it's just pure beauty. And then you know you're not getting the birds and the squirrels like you usually do. So you know when something's moving it's silent, but you know it's either deer, fox or coyote. Usually you may get a hawk or something like that, or bird or prey, but it's usually that it's the weather for the predators or the big game. You know it's not for those little squirrels where you're getting annoyed because you think everything's a damn deer Like yeah, that's, that's, I love it.

Speaker 4: 29:53

I had a ton of birds. There were a ton of every species of bird in the area. Was was chilling out.

Speaker 2: 30:01

Yeah, they tend to chill a little more than because I think they, you know they can get up high and they're they're good. You know, with the squirrels and everything like that, things are not in its favor and I, honestly, every year I think, when it snows I almost always see a hawk go after a bird, like it's. It happened again this year, it happened last, it happens almost every year. This time I just didn't get on camera. I've gotten it once on camera because it was just happening to film. I was filming a bobcat and it happened right when I was filming a bobcat which was stalking those, those birds, which was, which was crazy, and then the bobcat got scared off by by does coming in.

Speaker 2: 30:44

Oh, wow, yeah, so usually my my hunts in the snow go great. This year I don't know what's going on, but I'm enjoying winter, I'm enjoying the cold weather. Unfortunately it's going to heat up and rain, but from the late forecast because now I'm really big into the forecast and you to the YouTube videos Looks like there will be a push of cold weather Coming again roughly like January 31st into February. So we should be back into the cold, snowy hopefully snowy weather and in February to end out the season. So that would that would be really great, you know, and it's hopefully next year you can paint the snow red for your snow Cause.

Speaker 1: 31:28

That's all you're missing.

Speaker 4: 31:29

That's all you're missing. You guys are super fortunate, though. You have the extra two weeks up there and zone, you know, and Reg said seven and eight, so that's, that's awesome. I mean, I don't know, maybe next year I'll just come out in the late, late season with you guys. Yeah Well, yeah, come on, we'll go get a blizzard in the last week of January into February. Yeah, come on.

Speaker 2: 31:53

Also listen, we got tons of, tons of places like I want to even go even further and everything like that, like we talked about before and talk about we want to start going a little more south and everything like that, but still go north, like I want to be all over the place, like the cool thing being with the saddle is you could do that, like we could be everywhere and it's going to be all all good. So the fiance came out and distracted me. I'm sorry I should lose my train of thought, but yeah, now we'll have tons of plans and stuff like that next year and if you come up late season, we got the extra couple of weeks and it's always great and more opportunity hung up in the snow and hung up then the mountains or the hill country that we have up here and I think I think you'll, I think you'll fall in love with it. It's it's different. You know, especially where Frank's hunting.

Speaker 2: 32:52

I mean damn, whatever he said the other day, like I know I was shocked. I have a question Do you have a lot of hunting pressure where you're at?

Speaker 3: 33:00

Um, so we, we usually don't, let's just say, but this year a lot of people hit it hard during the rut and then nobody, like during buck week. I was lucky if I saw like five trucks, like there was nobody. It was dead silent. Like you heard maybe two, two, three shots, all like all day like dead silent. And actually when I went out the other day, um, it was the last day above the permit shotgun. So two trucks pull in as I'm getting out of my truck and these guys, they kind of get out and they kind of look at me funny, and I was like I was like hey, how are you guys doing? They're like good, they're like, um, they're like it's shocking, what are you doing out here with a boat? I'm like, I'm like, you know, I was like I rather, you know, I rather bow hunt, you know, to be honest with you. And they're like no, no, no, put that back in the truck, go grab a shotgun, because you know that's the only way you're going to get them now.

Speaker 3: 34:01

But you know, yeah, oh how is one of those you know? I was like oh good luck to you guys. You know, go get them.

Speaker 4: 34:15

No, that's totally prominent. You know mindset this time of year because the Medford WMA the one that's closest to us in our area. I drive right past the parking lot literally every day on the way to work and I've never hunted there, but it's nothing but orange vests and orange hats. I mean all the guys that are going in there are muzzle loader and shotgun. You know, just past three, four weeks, so I mean it's definitely a prevalent mindset for sure. I think the even bigger one, though, is are the bow hunters, who use the loophole during six day to take the two extra bucks, and that blows people's mind. They're like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean you can't drive deer with a bow.

Speaker 1: 34:58

I'm not driving deer.

Speaker 4: 35:01

You're driving them to be deer, you are.

Speaker 2: 35:04

There is going to be a point, and I hope sometime soon. I always tell people we could shoot. Look at all these deer that we could shoot just with regular bow. And then you add two more with six day, Any weapon. Yeah, it is. What other state can you do that in? It's great, but it also does hurt. You know New Jersey a little bit with growing bigger deer, but it's also great where something that they should use if they really want to grow the state and make more money, they can easily do that. You could put a point system in Grow bigger deer and also still tell people hey, you can shoot this many deer, you know, and I've I've seen the difference about every September to February.

Speaker 1: 35:56

You could shoot it out. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:58

The only thing New Jersey has to do is somehow find a way To make it a little more accessible. Access is the biggest disadvantage of why there's a lot of deer numbers in places where you can't get in. The places that do have hunters, it's the deer numbers. Definitely you could tell there's a huge difference.

Speaker 1: 36:23

You know somebody that I spent a lot of time in other states and I think New Jersey actually needs more credit for access. I'm going to actually disagree with you, really. I have on.

Speaker 1: 36:32

X pulled up right now and I grew up hunting Maryland, especially the last few years trying to hit public land in Maryland and it like doesn't exist, like there is very few, like Maryland has so little that they have to put in systems where you have to reserve your spot just to try to keep pressure low, whereas New Jersey is like 19% I think.

Speaker 1: 36:55

But I do agree access is important because you have especially I've noticed this a lot when it comes to fishing and maybe I'm just looking in the wrong spots, but I've had trouble like finding like there's access to fishing spots but you'd have to. It's like there's like I read a study meat eater to special on YouTube fishing the Pseig River and New Jersey has been stocking the Pseig River with big pike and they've been stocking the Pseig River with pike, but there is like and that Pseig River runs through the most population dense part of the state, that northeast part, but there is zero access along the entire river, like from Great Swamp down and you're not allowed to fish in Great Swamp and you're not. You know it. Just it's. It makes no sense In certain aspects.

Speaker 1: 37:48

So you know you can have the land, but being able to access it is the other thing.

Speaker 4: 37:55

I'm going to agree with both of you, actually, because from my limited experience, I think New Jersey, especially South Jersey, has an epic amount of access and we have we have Wharton State Forest.

Speaker 4: 38:08

I mean it's the largest forest in the whole state and there's a lot, a lot of land and it's a lot of land and it traverses so many different counties of the state. Down here Now, and then of course as well, you have all of your municipal your, your like the kind of stuff that I hunt, predominantly your sub 20 acre parcels that are public, and almost every township in our area has some kind of public land that I would say, in my experience so far down in our area, 80 to 85 percent of those townships will let you hunt on that land. So there are plenty of opportunities in that way. Now you go to the wanting to hunt private or farms. You're in a totally different story. Totally different story Private getting access to private down here. You you got to just basically have grown up in the area in no peace, just basically have grown up in the area and no people or wait till the people that are there have been hunting it Stop. I mean still trying to figure that one out, honestly.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Yeah, no, I. And it's like you go up up north or northwest and you have the Delaware water gap, which I mean there's just so much land up there, which it's great. I love it, love it. You want to talk about some serious hunting up there? It's one thing I missed out on. This year we didn't get the chance to go up there, but next year it's going to be on the list. I'm making it back to the Delaware water gap, but you know it's.

Speaker 2: 39:52

There's just so many different things. You can argue so many different points. The one thing that we can all agree on is that then today we're still losing a lot of land. Hunters are just losing land and it's going to just get harder and harder and harder. It's a very unfortunate thing. I really don't know what our country is going to do, but something needs to change. It's not only for you. I don't want to be selfish for hunters, but you look at a state of just our country and our world and you're like no one has scientifically has said that we need trees, we need forest, we need all these things, we need ant. You just talk about bees alone. You need bees. The only thing we're doing is just destroying more and more habitat. Let's not even talk about hunting or anything like that. We're just destroying habitat, and for something that we really need, we need trees, a big part of where do we get our oxygen from People, really? Where do you think we get our oxygen from Siberia?

Speaker 4: 41:00

the Siberian forest Right.

Speaker 2: 41:06

Where do all these things come from? Like man, the woods is so much more special than what people dig. It really is these cities. They're not beneficial to us. If you really dig it, they're not how far do you want to go with them?

Speaker 4: 41:23

Yeah, we can save that for another podcast.

Speaker 1: 41:27

We'll definitely save that one because we can go.

Speaker 2: 41:31

I have a lot of things yeah Me too, we can go, but it's something that I really don't know what 10, 15, 20 years are going to look like, when all our kids are doing what, hopefully what we're doing, hopefully they can, hopefully they have the opportunity to experience what we're experiencing. I could only imagine what it was like 20 years before I said 30 years before, 40 or 50 or 60, oh my God, what the hunting must have been like. You know back then, like the animals, the amount of land that you had and everything like that it was. You could only dream. You could only dream or watch it in a movie or something like that.

Speaker 3: 42:15

Yeah, or if you read stories.

Speaker 4: 42:18

Yeah, yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that. I mean it kind of goes part and parcel with what you're talking about, with APR and all that kind of stuff, right? And I mean so I went to the Fish and Wildlife Forum. They had three forums earlier this year and I think you guys probably have talked about it at some point. But I went to the South Jersey one, which was down at Stockton College, and they had 45 minutes of metrics and data, I mean talking about all these different facts and figures, trying to basically say that they want to take away APR altogether. And there's definitely certain groups or I mean, I don't know if the right word is there's definitely certain groups of people that I understand why they want that. But again back to what you were saying about as far as, okay, six bucks they were talking about, hey, let's add a seventh buck tag, yeah, and it's like.

Speaker 4: 43:21

If you want to grow the state like we already obviously have a management problem of these animals. If you want to grow the state as far as have not trophies but just have nice deer and nice bucks out there, but you want to sell tags, you can't have both. I feel like you know what I mean. It's very hard to say well, we're going to have APR, but we're going to add a buck tag for seven bucks. Well, people are just going to stop buying tags Like they're not going to get to even that third buck If APR is there as well and I'm not arguing one way or the other for it.

Speaker 4: 44:00

I like the idea of APR honestly, but they had a lot of metrics and data there showing that APR doesn't necessarily grow big bucks. It's kind of the argument they were trying to make, so I don't know. It's all very interesting.

Speaker 2: 44:14

No, it definitely is, and I imagine it just depends on the area and what the hunting pressures look like. One of the spots that I hunt I talk about this all the time because I am an advocate for it is the one's own, has it? And giant deer I mean. You can look at the deer that I shot, the one that Kurt shot, the one that Peyton shot last year Like there are big deer there, there's more, there's just so many deer. The buck to doe ratio is like seven to three. I kid you not, it's completely wild. We don't see many, does we really don't. You're encountering mostly buck.

Speaker 1: 44:57

So it makes it very difficult. Two hands and 40 sits how many does I've seen? Yeah, but way more bucks.

Speaker 2: 45:07

Last year we were chasing seven to eight bucks, decent, like really good bucks, like anywhere from, I'd say, low 120s to probably 140, maybe even 45. Right, and we know, and we know there's bigger deer. Like the thing is, we know that there's somewhere and there's bigger deer here. There's just so many. But it makes it a pain in the butt when you're hunting for doze or during the rut or whatever the case. It does make it a little more difficult. But then you go down the road a little further and a little six pointer that's about the size of the deer that killed a couple of years ago. That's one of the bigger deer there and you just see the difference. That's a spot that has a lot more dose, like the doe to buck ratio is a little more. Even I might give it actually a little more to the dose. So it could just be. There's not a lot of hunting pressure there, so the deer, they're not getting shot as much, they're not being hunted as much. Maybe the places that they're doing the numbers there's just a lot of hunters and so the minute they have three points on one side they're legal, they get to get shot. So it's not really you're not really seeing a big difference, because right now, where we're at, you couldn't even like there's just so many bucks that of course, some are going to make it and they're going to grow up to be really, really good bucks, because I just don't think there's maybe not as many hunters.

Speaker 2: 46:44

That could be one thing. Maybe it's the food source, maybe it's the fact that it's so thick that they're actually always safe and they don't have to put themselves in really difficult situations. Maybe they go from private, and that's another thing. They'll be on private and then at night they'll come on to public. There's just so many different scenarios. So it's a very interesting thing and I would like to talk to somebody about it, because everything nowadays seems like analytics. You look at every sport in the world everything's down to the analytics. You look at hunting it's down to the analytics. Everything is now down to the analytics. So it's an interesting situation. But we've rambled on a lot on this episode, just random topics, and we've only really hit, I think, three topics and they've just been like they've been good, interesting topics, oh god. So one thing that we definitely have to talk about before we get done First of all, our buddy Bass. It's his first year hunting this guy. He's in his 50s retired, so he's gone over 100 sits at this point. Yes, yes, this is what he does.

Speaker 2: 48:03

He's on the name of the two feet, jumped in and we met him back and I met him, I think like spring, and then I invited. I was like, hey, we start talking, it's his first year hunting, get it. I was like, hey, next week we're having a meet and greet, an archery shoot and a meet and greet why don't you pull up? He pulled up, talked to the guys and painted, met him, everything like that. And then we just stayed friends and we stayed connected. We were scouting together, he was helping me out, we were doing all these things and he jumped in full. He's addicted.

Speaker 2: 48:38

This man first of all spent the whole entire summer scouting. He was out every day Different pieces of wood to like constantly. He's covered more ground than anyone that I even imagine, even the most experienced guys. He's just covered way more ground. Then he got into hunting and he still has that. He's still a rookie. So, on public, yes, he's making a lot of mistakes, don't get me wrong, but I love that, the fact that he just keeps going at it and he hasn't quit, no matter the weather. He was staying in the blind in the worst storms and I'm like I'm back at home sitting and like what are you still doing out Like dude. It's raining bullets outside and there's lightning. I'm like what is wrong? I was like, ok, hey, do you have fun? And he's killed what? Four deer, Five deer, four or five.

Speaker 1: 49:32

Four deer this year.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Four deer.

Speaker 1: 49:35

Very nice pie ball that he's taining himself, so we'll see how that goes. I'm excited to see how that helps. Yeah, we're getting updates and teaching himself. I got no idea to tane a hide, but it's always something that I think Mike also mentioned. It's like something cool that I'd like to do?

Speaker 2: 49:54

I do want to do it. Yeah, I love to do it.

Speaker 1: 49:55

I'm listening to the meat eater Long Hunters audio book right now and they're talking about hides. And then it's so funny, bass shot that pie ball and I'm like, wow, actually you don't ever take it. It's like something that doesn't ever get touched on deer, but I think it'd be cool to start utilizing that more.

Speaker 2: 50:15

Yeah, 100%. And he butchered his first. He didn't take the deer to the butcher's first deer. I'll never forget. I was like, oh, you're going to take it to the butcher, he goes. No, I'm butchering it up right now. I went to his house and all day just where else this man? I was like, do you have this, do you have this? He goes, no, he goes off. And he just figures it out and it works. It's great to see him. Then he killed an eight pointer last week, or was there? Yeah, last week he killed an eight pointer. Like this is a nice, nice buck. Frontal shot just went, 20 yards dropped and he talked about how lethal that can be.

Speaker 2: 50:54

Yeah, if you could get it. It is a little shot Ground level.

Speaker 1: 50:57

Lethal shot will crush him yeah. He said it was a messy gut job, though he did say yeah. It was not the prettiest field dressing job.

Speaker 2: 51:07

Which is you know. You got to remember. It's his first time doing this. I've punchered.

Speaker 1: 51:11

Well, no, I mean oh yeah. I've gotten those guts plenty of times where you say I still do you shoot an arrow through him too, though you go long ways. Oh yeah, yeah, opposite to the Texas heart shot, I guess.

Speaker 3: 51:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:29

You know, and it's. I told him. I was on the phone with them and I was like, listen. He's like, oh, you know, I still want to get a public like a you know very liked, like I've had it. Ok, I go. No, you've had an excellent year, I go. No one their first year does this successful all by especially, all by themselves. Like you weren't having people put you on deer, you weren't having you know, I love it when kids shoot big monsters, but that you know they're still like, it's still different. You know you're going out there and you're doing it all on your own. You took every step and you learned it yourself and it was truly amazing to see. So I have to give him a huge shout out.

Speaker 2: 52:15

But the funniest, funniest thing yet this morning, steve Texas, us and one of his buddies, shot a deer and he was gutting it and something I've never seen this early in the year and I don't know if any of our listeners have, but there was a fawn in it. So we're talking this morning like it's, oh my God, like we couldn't believe it, like I don't think anyone's could really believe it, like we've never seen it. I've heard this, you know the possibility, but like never in the you know have have I seen it. So then Bass is texting us and he's like hey, the deer I shot today had two fawns inside of it and I was like what I was, like what is the case, like I can't believe, like okay one, okay you know, eventually it's going to happen.

Speaker 2: 53:11

But, now there's two deer, two completely different area, and, like Peyton said in the group, it is exactly what Carolina Reaper was talking about is, with the weather and everything like that, the rut is not as consistent as it used to be. You know, deer are getting bred, probably way earlier than what we really thought they were, because it's just unpredictable. It really is, and that proves it right there. That like, is this something that we're going to be seeing more often in going through years, years in the past or years to come?

Speaker 4: 53:48

Yeah, it's interesting that it's both up in your area in North Jersey and Northern counties and also down here as well, I mean because where this deer that my buddy took was five miles from my house, I mean, and so it's. We've actually been talking about it a fair amount. I had talked with him about it quite a bit. You know hunting this late and I think some of us are probably having the idea of, hey, maybe we're trying to get some catch up or just trying to get some extra meat in the freezer, so I don't really care if it's a buck. I mean, I can speak for myself. I have not been after my target since he vanished the end of November, so I very much been hey, I want to take a dough, I just want to get a little more meat in the freezer. That's. You know my aspirations. That's as high as they are. Hey, if a nice buck comes out, I'll spend my tag on it, I'll punch my tag, I'll not have no problem.

Speaker 4: 54:48

But it was just interesting, literally just talking to my buddy this past week, both of us going out and having the conversation of you know what are the chances if we take a dough and we could have a fawn in there, like, and how far along in the development you know, could that that fawn be? And then we got our answer this morning and I mean I think we all, like you said, we're all blown away. I was really surprised. People always talk about in this area down here in Southern Burlington County, talk about how the rut pops off, basically all Halloween night like, or the day before, and looking at the maturity of the gestation on this fawn, I could easily see that that dough could have gotten bread that first weekend, like it's highly probable.

Speaker 4: 55:41

So I mean, and then we talked about too, you know, is the risk for that worth it? And then, where do the ethics come in for something like that? Like, yes, we want to put meat in the freezer, but you're taking two lives. I mean, is that a? I mean I don't know if this is even weird to say, but is that a form of management that people are frown on like in that way? I mean, are there positives to that? Can it be looked at in that way? I don't know. These are questions I'm still wrestling with myself.

Speaker 2: 56:15

Great, great that you said that, because I think the state will look it as a good thing, because or the insurance companies will look it as a good thing and they would push for that, because you're removing the population that we're trying to remove, we're trying to bring down as a ethic standpoint, as a is this something that can tool and fire up the anti-hunters? Yes, 100%, and it is something that, listen, I need to meet and I really do so. I have no choice but to go out there and shoot a doe and take that risk. But, moving forward, I have to shoot my deer does earlier in the year, get that out the way. So I don't have to worry and I don't have to play that judgment, because that is, I'm going to shoot the doe that I want to shoot. Right, I don't want. At the end of the day, you're still killing to me, you're still killing a fawn and you're taking two for no reason. I'd much rather that fawn is, or that doe is, pregnant.

Speaker 4: 57:34

I want that doe to drop and be able to bring out an offspring, especially in a post-EHD year where they're I mean absolutely you want to become the full gestation.

Speaker 2: 57:51

Absolutely so. I know it's not going to happen, but I wouldn't mind having that and I don't know how many people would agree with me on this, especially if you poll the state, because a lot of people love shooting does. But if we're already having unlimited amount of does, do we really need unlimited amount of does in the winter? Do you move it down? I've already thought about maybe you should move the doe numbers down to two a season. That still gives you plenty. You don't need to shoot five in the winter. Bow, you don't need to shoot five fall. You don't need to shoot five. Move it two to each. I know it's not going to happen, because it's kind of the same thing with the point and they want to bring down the deer numbers, but it's.

Speaker 2: 58:30

I think it's just a bit much and I think maybe in winter bow it's like, okay, you shoot one and then after, when the rest of the state closes down, you can only shoot a buck if there's a buck, you know. No, no shooting does, because we're going to second week of February, so where, if we're already seeing dode and that, yes, it looks like that doe was bred in the first week? You know, that's crazy.

Speaker 4: 58:56

That doe looks like she could drop in the first week of April. Honestly.

Speaker 2: 59:00

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:01

So, we wait three more weeks. We wait three more weeks. Oh my God, it's. It's going to be so much worse than you don't want to also now have the a new hunter. You don't want a, a child or somebody like that, anyone who's getting into the sport, to turn them off of the sport.

Speaker 2: 59:21

I know for a fact if my fiance shot a doe, this and now I might have to reconsider about taking her out, because if she shot a doe and then you know I'm opening it up and there is a fawn inside, I don't think she would hunt again. I really I don't and I'm not going to take that risk because, boom, now you lost a female hunter, now you lost a crucial hunter. So there there's. I don't know they're going to have to if this keeps coming up. This is going to have to something that hunters and the state really look into, because you know it could screw a lot of things up first, especially if the anti hunters catch wind of it. You know it could. It's, you know, couldn't even imagine what that's going to be like, you know.

Speaker 4: 1:00:05

I don't know how many people talk about this or how often this kind of thing happens. I mean, I can't say that I've ever heard of a podcast or anybody ever really talking about this.

Speaker 1: 1:00:17

Now, you know, not, not, not, not, Jersey honestly.

Speaker 4: 1:00:20

So I mean, it's definitely good timing. Yeah, I don't know. And you go back to go back to the fall, go back to opening week and the earn the earnabout program. Is that the best time to be doing it? Because now you have all these these, does that are? You know, they're nanny deer and they're taking care of the fawns. The fawns aren't ready to be on their own. Is there really? When is the best time to take those? You know, I mean, people are scouting bucks all summer long. They're excited to take a buck. If someone takes a buck, is the idea well, I got my buck, I don't need to kill any more deer. Well, are those the people that are really helping with management? Anyway? I mean, are those you know, and each their own? You do what you want with your tags, right? Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know what the answer is and don't propose to know. We got a podcast on this but it's definitely a conversation.

Speaker 3: 1:01:19

Oh yeah, we're going to write these down.

Speaker 2: 1:01:23

So, ladies, gentlemen, you know who's less we are going to do, because these are some really great, and you know we've done it before. But we have to, like I want to have a huge debate, get a maybe a couple of other guys on, like Dave and all of them, and sit down. Well, the next round table, maybe not the next round table segment, but the next one after that. That's what we'll do. We'll see more maybe the next one. We'll see what we'll get it done. But the last thing I was saying on that listen, I'm not a big believer of the earned a buck. I'm really not. Because then you have people that shoot everything, everything, and yet again, I've seen those with with spots on it. I'm not a big, I'm not a believer in that, I'm really not. You know, I like shooting. The big nanny does so. Or you got the people that are shooting button bucks. I've. You know what's that doing. Now You're, you're removing a buck from the. You know the herd of the poppy. So I don't know, it's a breeze in discrimination?

Speaker 4: 1:02:19

It really does?

Speaker 2: 1:02:19

Yeah, it's a very tough thing that the state had, and I get it. But it's also like, come on, like just it's, you're going to have people just do it and then or you're going to have people do illegal stuff who don't even shoot the dough and they just go for it and say they do. So like you're kind of setting people up to failure and you know we're supposed to be doing the ethical thing but we know that's not going to always happen and you know there's always. So why would you force something for someone to do when it's like, yeah, maybe let's just get rid of that? I know a couple of states or a couple of the zones open up early. Hey, listen, you've been scouting all summer for this big buck and he's showing up on daylight that opening morning. You should be able to send an arrow. And it happens often where people have to weigh that decision, where it's like, oh, my shooter buck is right there and like, yeah, some people just do shoot that buck opening morning.

Speaker 1: 1:03:20

I think there might be more. You know what do you shoot a deer, september 12th. You're not going to hunt the rest of the year. You know you will get people. I think after that I think you probably get people are like well, I got to get out in the woods, I got to get out in the woods and then you'll see you hunt those and I think that's how you. I think that would do better for you.

Speaker 2: 1:03:38

I think 100% agree. Yeah, Because once you got that buck, the pressure is off you. You know, now you can say, all right, now I can go back and you know, even if it's a week or two later, you can let the, you know, the temperature die down a little bit and it's like all right, like cool Now. It says, and also you bring that incentive of I might shoot myself a velvet buck. Yeah, Now more people. If we could get like, hey, let's, you know, let's go to Jersey and let's shoot a, let's shoot a velvet buck, Like that's on, that's a huge goal. I want to go to Kentucky to do that. But if New Jersey had it like, why the hell am I going to go spend the money in Kentucky when I'll just spend the money in New Jersey and hunt my home state instead of traveling somewhere else to go shoot a velvet buck Because, let's be honest, that's probably on almost everyone's bucket list is to shoot a velvet buck.

Speaker 4: 1:04:27

But, Mike, that that, that just hits a little too close to home for me this year, cause that lady killer, the buck that I took one day away from he was in. He was in full doubt that the day before I killed him I was like, oh man. I just did it out the day before, and I had already I actually had already bought the velvet, the velvet lock, I had already bought the spray. I was ready to go. Nope, not this year.

Speaker 1: 1:04:53

Oh man, this might be kind of a hot take, but I think that if you actually started to issue individual dough tags, to say, you, every year you get your license, you get 10 dough tags, I think you might see more people wanting to take more doughs throughout the year, versus if they're just whatever you know if it's an actual, you're holding it in your hand.

Speaker 1: 1:05:21

I'm holding it in my hand. I want to fill this tag, whereas it's just like an open ended, just kind of whatever. I think that it might. It might if it comes out, somebody's going to whack it because it would kind of create the illusion of scarcity that exists with a buck tag. You know, especially during that done season. You know it's like if that buck walks out, it's like I got six days. I got to fill the six day buck tag. You know I got to fill my fall buck tag. That's true.

Speaker 2: 1:05:53

But if I hold the dough tag in my hand.

Speaker 1: 1:05:57

Maybe, maybe I'd be a little more keen to like. I got to fill this dough tag.

Speaker 4: 1:06:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:03

I filled my buck tag. I filled my dough tag you might get more dough on the ground that way, people don't want to waste the money.

Speaker 1: 1:06:09

You know you got some skin in the game. It's the same reason that, you know I paid for part of my dad wanted me to pay for part of my college and you know I was lucky to have a parent that would pay for some of my college and I have a lot of friends that were in the same boat and it was like you got to have some skin in the game. You know, put some money into it and you want to try hard, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:26

That wasn't an issue to begin with for me, but you know, that's pretty true. No, that's that's yeah, no it's true.

Speaker 3: 1:06:32

I like that? Yeah, cause I know, like upstate New York, how they do. It is like so the farmers will get certain amount of dough tags for their property and if they don't use those dough tags by the end of the year, next year they get less dough tags. So we actually get, we go up, since we basically know you know all the farmers by having our own farm. They actually are like hey, if you want to come over and shoot a dough like, you're more than welcome because we have to use these dough tags, maybe they can't get out that season or whatever.

Speaker 4: 1:07:10

So it's yeah that's that might do well for our area too, with people getting access to private farmland too, and that might help with the overall mass attrition for hunters who do hunters and the state honestly.

Speaker 4: 1:07:29

And it's funny too. You mentioned that because I think there's like a perfect storm I was just thinking about it now when you're when you're talking about that, peyton and I think there's like this perfect storm in Jersey where you have the earn a buck program for the early season. You have to take that dough. Now you're on to try to take your buck and you're trying to take that buck before the end of fall bow, before rut, because you're going to just get another tag in November for permit, see if you choose to do it. But now the perfect storm and the perfect setup is I killed my dough, I did my thing, I did my due diligence, I killed my buck. I don't want to kill any more doughs now because those doughs are going to bring the bucks in for right and I think that is the biggest deterrent of people wanting to kill those before rut. Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:08:17

So I stopped. I stopped shooting those at a certain point and me and Mike talked about this. It's like, yeah, how many, how many? What percentage of the doughs killed are killed in like the first week of the season during our earn a buck. You know, I'd be willing to bet that just during the earn a buck season, like in that three week span, it's probably close to a quarter at least, even though the season's like I don't even know how many weeks 12 weeks, maybe more, 14, 14 weeks Roughly roughly.

Speaker 1: 1:08:48

You know, I bet in that 14, in that first three weeks. You're seeing, I bet the numbers go like this and then they really, they really peel off after that. If you look at the numbers hard, it's just for a day. So it's because there's a box to check. You know you got your to do list right. I got to shoot my earn a dough. I got to shoot my earn a buck buck. I shoot my fall buck. Issue my permit buck. Issue my guns using buck. Issue my winter bow buck. The only time a dough makes that list on the to do list, like the only time there's a box to check where it's for dough related, is that first week. People like to check the boxes. You know it's.

Speaker 2: 1:09:34

No, that's very true. You know this is going to make for one. We do have this sit down one, because then we haven't even gotten to the bare topic yet of what needs to be, and that is a whole other can of worms. We can always do broadheads and arrow way and everything like that. And how many other laws are out there that like, oh gosh, you talk about Tabas, you know he. Just he's all over. You know the Fish and Wildlife Game Commission about their laws and everything like that.

Speaker 1: 1:10:04

He really is like.

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

He's got a laundry list of complaints for them, and this is yet again, it's coming from a. It's confusing, it is so confusing.

Speaker 1: 1:10:14

It is confusing, it is, it is. It came from a different state in Maryland for the first time. Oh my God, is it confusing. Just turkey hunting alone is a nightmare.

Speaker 2: 1:10:25

Oh yeah, no, turkey hunting scares me. It does scare me there's.

Speaker 1: 1:10:30

It's like you got to buy a permit for a different permit every day almost.

Speaker 2: 1:10:36

And the last thing I'll say in that week because we're going to make this weekly update too long is if you do make a mistake, you're kind of crucified in our state where Someone who poaches gets basically the same thing as someone who that is, you know. I'll use Mike's situation. He filled out, he forgot to fill out the green. He didn't know he had to fill out the green paper. He did everything else correctly, just didn't fill out the green. You know your tag Because he thought he was on it Once. You fill it out online, you're good. So you're telling me this person should be suspended for two years. And a person who poaches a deer or shoots a buck, tags it underneath a doe and then tries to shoot another buck that's the same thing? No, that's not the same thing.

Speaker 4: 1:11:25

That's not the same thing. No, prime is not his punishment. There's no way.

Speaker 2: 1:11:30

Yeah, that's a good point. I don't get a speeding ticket and get thrown into jail.

Speaker 1: 1:11:36

If we're going to do it. At that point Mike's will do the big one, Not advertising anybody to do it, but it's like that's almost kind of what it says I'm going to take it. Mike's will earn that ticket. Yeah, that's right. It's going to be the same thing.

Speaker 2: 1:11:47

Yeah, just like you have in murderers, rapists, anything like that. Their crime has to be severe. If you're poaching, it has to be severe. If you're doing basically the same damn time as everyone else, what's?

Speaker 1: 1:12:05

the difference.

Speaker 2: 1:12:06

What is the difference?

Speaker 1: 1:12:08

You follow every rule, but there is levels to it, right? Yeah, if you're not lighting a deer, it's different than shooting a duck 31 minutes before sunrise.

Speaker 4: 1:12:17

Yeah, yeah. Going online and now reporting your harvest online or over the phone and then not writing on the tag for transport, that should be a warning. That should be a warning saying, hey, this situation, here it's a learning opportunity?

Speaker 1: 1:12:37

Yes, absolutely, especially since somebody's clearly taken the initiative to try to do the right thing. Education would serve the hunting community and the constituents far better than trying to encourage them from doing it at all.

Speaker 2: 1:12:58

You guys, if you're outside looking in and you're getting into hunting, you wouldn't want to hunt, you don't want. This turns you off from hunting. No one's teaching you the warning is they're not teaching you, they're more punishing you. The state's punishing you for making a mistake. That's not how things work. Save the severe stuff for that, because then maybe it's like all right, you know what? I'm sorry, but make that fine. Push that fine up too. Make it a $10,000 fine. Make it like, okay, you're not getting this weapon back ever. And not only that. Do something severe where it's really like everyone needs to be treated. Do something so severe where it's like, all right, we're not going to have obviously, don't, there's certain. But $10,000 fine, man, you get hit with a $10,000 fine.

Speaker 1: 1:13:55

I don't think we're low, it's just wildlife terms in general, just they're always low. I mean I don't know if anybody else listens to like Cal's we can review from meat eater. You'll have like the crime desk and it'll be like somebody went over limit on whatever it is you know, by like 1,000 and like fine of two grand and 30 days of community service and it's just like how you know. It's like you, just totally you've depleted a resource that's public property.

Speaker 2: 1:14:26

Yeah, and the last thing we are going to actually be doing, a new segment it's kind of going to be off of that. I'm going to be reading you know different things out there, the New Jersey Fish and Wildlife. They always put like kind of what the wardens do and if they catch people and everything like that, they post it on Facebook and Instagram and I always read them.

Speaker 2: 1:14:47

I think from now on we're going to have a segment where we're going to read it online and stuff and read it on here and we'll you know we'll talk about everything like that. But it's crazy and I guess you know we'll we could start here real quick. Let me give you the last one and then let's we'll get going on that one yeah. Yeah, so basically a the capture was Hunter accidentally shoots companion in Northwest Jersey.

Speaker 1: 1:15:10

Wow, wow, this year Yep, yep.

Speaker 2: 1:15:14

New Jersey Fish and Wildlife say let me play the article.

Speaker 3: 1:15:19

So this happened on Friday.

Speaker 2: 1:15:21

Yeah, yep, so it was up in Sussex County.

Speaker 3: 1:15:24

Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1: 1:15:27

Um they duck hunting?

Speaker 2: 1:15:29

No, they're deer, deer hunting.

Speaker 3: 1:15:32

From what I heard, it was like five thirty.

Speaker 2: 1:15:33

Wasn't that Um yep Pequest wildlife management area Sussex. County Um five thirty pm. Both men were hunting Yep the drive. It must have been.

Speaker 3: 1:15:47

The one. Yeah, it was only two guys.

Speaker 2: 1:15:50

Yep, just two guys. Yeah, okay, so it was a shot, so they were deer hunting, so, yep, the shotgun was treed and the case was handed over to New Jersey Fish and Wildlife borough. Um, and that that one was really it. There wasn't much detail. They I guess the guy's fine and he's like that, but nothing really much else was was about that. But Hunter safety, especially gun hunting, and that's when, like I kind of like move off of gun hunting, kind of New Jersey, like Allen, you know, pa, upstate, new York, maine, like those plates You're mostly by yourself, for the most part, like you're, you're, you're good, but people just do a lot of dumb stuff, especially during, like, the pheasant season or something like that. Oh yeah, you know, I talked to a warden and they said their busiest time is during pheasant season. That's, the most elated shootings they have is during the pheasant season.

Speaker 1: 1:16:43

So you know, hopefully, I felt like. I was in a war zone in my tree on opening day. Yeah yeah, I was trying to have them drive some deer by me. It did work, but it's not worth it. No, it's. You know. I wish I had your protection on some of the how close some of those were.

Speaker 4: 1:17:05

But my goodness, I did my first drive this year with a with a hunting club in the area and it was. It was very interesting. I, I, I. I could say that I enjoyed it. It was a different kind of hunting than obviously I've ever done before and I did feel safe with those guys. The way that it was laid out, it was well done, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:17:28

Yeah, you gotta have that breathing, but at the same time, at the same time to me, having 70 guys this is a big club, 35 drivers and 35 standards out there and for six, seven drives in a day, I'm just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe, I. Still it's hard to believe somebody didn't get shot or something bad didn't happen and that and that situation like I'm not going to say it's miraculous, but it was, it was actually impressive.

Speaker 1: 1:18:00

You really got it Like you can't have fast that. You really got to sit everybody down and get everybody on the same page.

Speaker 3: 1:18:05

If you're going to do something like that and some people, yeah, and some people, they get just so hyped up, they're just so focused, they like they lose their train of thought, almost you know. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:18:14

Yeah, that is true, that is true, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:18:20

So if you're going to do it listen, I know I different pace. I do like to do it once or twice and I think from now on I'm going to probably do it one of the seasons because it's just a new change of pace. But the thing I like about being with Mike and with like we're you know we're always talking, you know we usually get the walkie talk where there's a lot of communication. You know you got to be spread out and you know you got to trust who you're going with. You know, and just be cautious all the time. And you know, just know where you're aiming, just you know. And further, because if you miss you have to know what is what is further. So don't, it's not worth it.

Speaker 2: 1:18:59

You know I happened a couple of years ago, um coyote hunting, and people are like oh well, why didn't you shoot? I had my 22, my 223, bold action, remington. Um had a coyote come out when I was coyote hunting and I could have shot this thing. But there was a house I knew over the you know the thicket, and I was like I'm not risking it, like I'm. I'm not at all. Like if this coyote comes, comes out a different way, I'll send it, but like it's not worth it.

Speaker 2: 1:19:30

With a rifle, like hell, no, like that's gosh forbid someone, gosh forbid somehow the bullet gets over there. I'm not saying it was going to, but you can't take that like chance gosh forbid. Someone's outside. You know it was snowing out, so maybe they're, you know they're doing something out in the snow, maybe the kids are outside playing or whatever. I'm not taking that as much as I wanted to shoot that coyote, like I really wanted to, but it ain't worth it. No, no, killing nothing or doing anything like that's not, it's not worth it at all. But, guys, this was an amazing update.

Speaker 2: 1:20:01

This is a very long one. I had a blast. I cannot wait till we sit down and we do the round table segment with everyone and we hit these topics and everything like that. It's going to be really fun. Any last words for any of you guys? Nope.

Speaker 1: 1:20:19

It's a long thing covered a lot of good stuff. Good luck to you guys that are.

Speaker 4: 1:20:23

good luck to you guys that are going to get out this week. Hopefully, all besides Peyton, sorry. Yeah, you can get on. Scout, yeah, but hopefully everybody finds themselves in the woods for at least one day, one set or hang a walk this week.

Speaker 2: 1:20:36

and yeah, and yeah you know, I think it's going to be Friday, friday for me, and then next Tuesday and Wednesday, because one of my spots ends on Wednesday and then hopefully we're going to go for Friday. Deer is going to be down on Friday, that's what I'm saying, that's it, and I imagine Frank will be out and everything like that.

Speaker 3: 1:20:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:21:01

Steve hopefully Friday you can get it done.

Speaker 4: 1:21:04

Yeah, I mean I know in my videos I posted that you know this past Friday was my last hang of the season, but now that it's looking like less rain on Friday it's kind of like, okay, maybe it's just our bonus day. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:21:18

Bonus day this season. I think you can call no wrong with that 100%.

Speaker 4: 1:21:25

Okay, that's raining, I know, I know everybody said there's another topic right Hunting in the rain unethical because the blood was right. Yeah, but no, I mean, yeah, probably be out there Friday.

Speaker 2: 1:21:36

I do like hunting in the rain, but I could see there's many different tops, so we'll get into that next time. Everyone, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. We'll see you guys next time.