Cutting Edge Camouflage: The Science Behind HECS Fabric

Speaker 2: 0:21

Welcome back to the Grand State Outdoorsman Podcast presented by Boondocks Hunting. I'm your host, Mike Nightring.

Speaker 3: 0:27

I'm Frank Mestica and I'm Steve Volnar.

Speaker 2: 0:30

And today we got you Mike Slinkard. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 4: 0:35

Hey, how are you guys?

Speaker 2: 0:36

doing. We're great here. Mike, why don't you real quick just give a quick you know backstory about yourself and introduce yourself to all the listeners that we have out there?

Speaker 4: 0:49

Okay, well, to start out with, I'm old and you're going to understand that in a minute. So I actually have been bow hunting my entire life. I honestly don't remember learning how to shoot a bow. My dad had me shooting it back in the 60s. So, yeah, so I'm old. So, anyway, you, you know, I've just been real passionate about bow hunting my whole life, archery as well. I shot a lot of competition archery professionally for eight years.

Speaker 4: 1:14

Um, you know, just uh, grew up hunting and fishing and you know we got a lot of elk out here. So elks to this day, my passion, that's my favorite thing now in the world. But been fortunate enough to have started a couple of companies in the outdoor industry and been making my life and my living in the outdoor industry just since 2000. So, you know, I've been doing a little bit of everything. I actually started Winner's Choice Custom Bow Strings back in 2000,. Ended selling that in in 2012. Um, right now we're my, my, uh, whole focus is our company called hex human energy consumer system. So, um, that's that's what we're doing now and and it's uh, it's, it's been nice, I mean, it's allowed me to do. Us do a lot of things hunt all over the world and uh meet a lot of great people and learn a lot of stuff. So anyway, yeah, in a nutshell, I'm just a bow hunter that uh got lucky and and been able to make my make my living in this industry.

Speaker 2: 2:13

So the, the experience from before we even get into you know hex and everything like that, like I imagine you got some great stories to tell. I imagine some, some, some pretty exciting hunts and things like that.

Speaker 4: 2:26

Well, yeah, I mean I've done a lot of everything. I mean everything from I've been to Africa four times. You know, the last trip over, I shot a great Cape buffalo with my bow, which was an exciting experience. He basically hunted me for two hours. That was interesting. Yeah, he got the wind and every other animal on the planet when they get your wind's going to go the other way most of the time. He actually came and tried to find us for about two hours and we finally got him killed. But, uh, pretty, pretty crazy experience.

Speaker 4: 2:57

Um, you know, a few years back I was able to take a giant brown bear with my bow up in alaska, um 16 yard shot, which I mean I mean that was just epic. But uh, you know, I mean I, like I said before, I live for hunting elk and that's that's my passion. I've actually taken 49 of them with a bow. So, uh, that's that's part of my passion. But I love big mule deer, I love white tail, uh, like Turkey, you know, you name it if you can stick an arrow in it. I've probably chased him one time or another, pretty much mike, did you just say that you killed 49 elk?

Speaker 1: 3:31

yep, yeah, actually, that should have been incredible, it should have been 50.

Speaker 4: 3:37

This is the. This last, 2023, is the first year and I can't even remember how long that I didn't shoot a ball. Um, I was after one particular bowl that's kind of how I do it now and I kind of try to, you know, target one. Um, and I had one pretty good bull I was chasing. I had one opportunity at him and it just didn't quite give me the shot and we had our, our, our plague. Out here is these wolves. So wolves came in and and the elk all left and that kind of messed us up this year. But uh, anyway, but yeah, no, it's just part of the game, yeah, it's.

Speaker 3: 4:09

You never know what's going to happen so I don't understand why is everybody excited about cameron haynes? You should be on the front cover of all the magazines well, cameron's a lot better looking than I am.

Speaker 4: 4:21

I've known. I've known cameron forever. He and I used to shoot tournaments together back in the day a long time ago and he shot our winner's choice bow strings. He was one of our staffers forever. So Cameron's a great guy and man. He's really taken off here in the last few years. It's fun to watch him.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Jesus, that's so cool to you know, just hearing about the, you know the elk and how many elk, and that's one that's so cool. And then I really want to know the buffalo right that out in Africa I've only had one other person that, no, I don't even, yeah, I think, one other person that's gone out there to to hunt them, what, what was that like? Like, what is hunting first of all in africa? What is bow hunting like in africa, with almost everything there can potentially kill us, with, with, with, without a problem at all.

Speaker 4: 5:21

Like no, no, hesitation, no, no, nothing like it's simple the cool part about africa is that you don't get sleepy in the blind like you do over here.

Speaker 4: 5:30

So, um, because literally you don't know what you're gonna see. Um, you know, we had one of my, one of my experiences over there, my very first trip over. We were sitting in a blind on a water hole and, uh, you know I was this is a long time ago now but um, that my, my ph reached over and grabbed my leg and said and just whispered, real quiet. He said don't make a sound. You know, just kind of whispered it to me at all okay, and I could hear some noise behind us, but it didn't sound like anything. It just sounded like maybe some wildebeest or something. And anyway, long story short, we never got to see them. But when we got out we had elephants right behind the blind and the tracks are, you know, gigantic tracks, and and he said, yeah, he said if they would have known we were there elephants are extremely dangerous and uh you know, luckily we have the wind in our favor and they didn't catch our wind or they would have got got goofy.

Speaker 4: 6:21

But he said that was pretty dangerous situation and I've had a couple other times over there with elephants where it's been a little little, uh, unnerving. We actually had a bull elephant take one of my doable blinds once and pack it off. So I actually found it about 600 yards away with two big tusk holes through it and, uh, I actually still have that blind. I brought it all the way home. It was you know. They broke, stomped on it and broke some of the some of the uh, you know structure on it. But I actually sent it back to primos and they rebuilt it for me. I still have it to this day. We just got two big holes that are sewed over in the in the blind. So, uh, they stole the blind and uh took a big dump right where it was and kind of I think he was sending us a pretty big signal.

Speaker 2: 7:02

But you just never know what's going to happen.

Speaker 2: 7:16

I know, I think I just read a report the other day that I think an elephant killed a, a tourist, or you know someone who was on a safari, I think, like in the last few days, where it was a bull was chasing them and the guy I guess the driver got stuck and couldn't go any further with with you know how thick the the bush was and everything like that, and they actually had to slow down and the elephant caught right up, flipped the you know the the vehicle over and you know, unfortunately it was, I think, four minor injuries, which were, which was a great thing, but unfortunately somebody did die, um, an american, uh, civilian did die.

Speaker 2: 7:45

And it's like Africa is just yeah, the more we talk about it, it's kind of like as much as I would like to conquer, you know North America, without a doubt, like without, but I think the more we do these podcasts, episodes and talk to people who actually have have gone there and hunted and everything like that, the more I've I don't know like I I've just now curious about africa yeah, you know, africa, if, if you're, if you're somebody who likes bow hunting, every, every bow hunter should should make it up, put it on their list to go to africa at least once.

Speaker 4: 8:23

Problem is, you probably won't ever go, once you'll you'll want to, just like me, I went the first time and and I think I shot 14 animals on my first trip over and it just gets addicting. You know, um, it's also one of the one of the most economical hunts there is. I mean, it's a long flight and the flight's expensive, but once you get over there, I mean you can shoot a lot of arrows without spending near as much money as you do over here. On the big stuff, you know, we hunt with Avula Sparris is the one that we've been going with and they're just a top-notch outfit. That's the other thing.

Speaker 4: 8:53

Not everybody, not all outfitters are made the same for African and not all of them are set up for bow hunters. That's something to be really, really cognizant of is. You know, I've been over there. I actually uh, went with a different outfitter and they were a decent outfitter, but they were just geared towards rifle hunting and it made the bow hunting very difficult. So you know, um, I've also. My first trip over was actually was that brabler who was the guide for tom miranda's place over there now and and I actually hunted uh, what's now tom mira safaris that was also an outstanding place as well. Um, just set up for bow hunting and they understood what we needed and that kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 9:31

So they're not all created the same, but if you go to a good one, it's hard to get it out of your blood once you know it really is well that's interesting too, about the bow hunting too, because they have some pretty high standards for your arrow setup and poundages, and all that just in order to be able to hunt those animals because of the size and penetration necessity. Right, yeah, they do so like in South Africa.

Speaker 4: 9:55

So one of my animals I'd like to go back after is a hippo. But in South Africa you have to. The only way to get a hippo with a bow in South Africa you just got to get a waver and jump through a lot of hoops and it's really difficult to do. Now they'll let you shoot buffalo. There's not really a lot, you know, but the best thing, the thing about buffalo is that their ribs basically overlap. So you're going to have to shoot through a rib and they're giant I mean they're three inches across and through a rib, and they're giant I mean they're three inches across, and you know. So you've got to really have something that's going to penetrate. Well, I shot a 600 and I think my arrow is like 670 grains, um, for my Buffalo shot a big cut on contact head, um, uh, I.

Speaker 4: 10:36

I have a really good friend named Rick Valdez that lives out in Salt Lake city. That's taken everything there is to take in Africa and he's and he builds arrows for, you know, some of the best bow hunters over there. He's built them for you know, like when Pete Shackley went over and all that he was building the arrows. So I actually got a hold of Rick and had him set me up some. I was actually shooting the Victory Extortions. We had a titanium insert-outsert on the out of them. They were pretty much full length. So but that's what you got to have on that big stuff. And then you know I'm only pulling like 74 pounds. It's not crazy weight, but, um, you need everything you can get when you're shooting something that size.

Speaker 2: 11:15

Shoes and, um, you know some. So with a with a hippo, you know when you do go back to to to target hippo or have you targeted before and just weren't successful?

Speaker 4: 11:25

I I have it. Um, the only way to do that is to go up into some of the northern countries and I, I, some of those things make me a little nervous. Um, there's, there's too many people up there who might like to shoot at you, so you know, so I'm, I'm, I I'll take a risk, but I those are the kind of I'll take a risk with animals all day long are the kind of I'll take a risk with animals all day long, but I don't really want to take a risk with that. So I've kind of steered away from that a lot. Um, I may have to bite the bullet at some point and do it. We are going back over in 2025 with a Vula and I know they have some connections up north. So, um, what?

Speaker 4: 11:58

I'd rather do is try to get that, to try to get that exemption. Um, it's just not very easy to do, so I don't know, we'll see what happens now what?

Speaker 2: 12:06

what is it about hippos? I mean, honestly, like I, I think I've only seen, well, I think, bomar, um, I think he's killed a hippo, but you know it's something that you you don't get to see too often. But what is it that grabs your attention with the hippo?

Speaker 4: 12:24

Well, so a hippo number one, actually. They actually kill more people than any animal in Africa. Number one, so they're extremely aggressive, which, and I don't know why it is it's an unhealthy addiction, but I've kind of started to like this dangerous game thing a little bit. So there's that. There's also the challenge of getting them out of the water. Um, because hippos will feed at night up on the land and then spend most of their days in the water. So a lot of times you're hiding them at like right, at like first light, and trying to get them to before they get back into the water.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Um, they also have extremely good noses and they will outrun you all day all day long.

Speaker 4: 13:04

There's a, there's a challenge from that. And then you know there's something about shooting giant things. You know whether it be a I mean a, hippo's, you know, giant on a different level, but like the buffalo is giant, you know, on a, on a level that's you know well, the only thing that compares really is, you know, over here, is moose would be the only thing, and only alaska moose, because I've shot all the moose and the alaska moose would probably compare to a, to a, to a cape as far as like, body size, but they're still, you know, capes, a foot thicker through the chest. Um, you know, over there, elan's a big animal and and, but elan's actually a thin skin animal. So you don't have to have all the, all the equipment. I just shot my, even the same stuff to shoot my elk with, um, but uh, yeah, I mean um, it's, it's just uh, something about shooting something that big with a with and shooting with a stick. It's just kind of a, I don't know, just just kind of gets, gets under the, under the skin a little bit.

Speaker 4: 14:00

Like I said, the dangerous game stuff. You know, my, my brown bear was, it really wasn't that dangerous because we were above him and it was real steep, almost a cliff right down off to him. So he honestly wasn't that scary and I put the arrow right where it needed to go and he didn't go very far. But the buffalo was a bit intense. I mean, he would charge right up to us at 20 yards but he was head on and I didn't want to shoot him head on and then when he would turn he would never let me have a shot, you know, forever.

Speaker 4: 14:32

And so, um, you know it was a, that was a, that one was. I got some major adrenaline dumps on that. So, um and uh, if, if I can get a tag, I'm trying to get a tag I'm going to try to shoot up to go after, uh, barragán grizzly in alaska this year if I can get a tag in it. They say I should be able to get one, but that's still kind of up in the air. But that's something I'm kind of hoping to do here in August.

Speaker 5: 14:51

With some of those Africa hunts, do you run into a lot of issues with some of those export laws on bringing stuff back from Africa? I'm not super well-versed, but I know that there is some restrictions on things.

Speaker 4: 15:03

You're not, yeah, so some animals you have to have a sightings permit to bring them back. Um and like, for instance, like leopards. I don't think you can bring a leopard back now. I don't think you bring any spotted cat back now. Um, that previously, like the first trip, my daughter and I took over. I have a daughter who's also a very accomplished bellhunter um, her and I went over I believe it was in 2014. And the first animal that she saw in Africa we popped up a pop-up blind and was there 30 minutes and the first animal she saw was a big leopard that came by us at eight yards.

Speaker 4: 15:38

You never see leopard in the daylight. And I actually was talking to the PH, you know, whispering to him trying to, and I've never said this and I probably never will again but I just told him to name his price whatever he wanted. I was going to take that thing. And that's when he said well, we don't have a. Cites permit. So you probably go to jail and I go. Well, I don't really want to go to African jail, so we got some great footage but I still don't have a leopard.

Speaker 4: 16:03

So but yeah, I mean, most of it's the permit process, with just some animals you know that you've got to have the site's permit for and some of them you can't like, for instance, a brown hyena. You can't bring those back at all and it's unfortunate because you know the way our government seems to look at this stuff. I mean, it's not endangered species, none endangered species, none of that stuff. Elephants, by the way, are not an endangered species. They're a nuisance in a lot of places and they absolutely you know they and they cause a lot of damage.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Um, but you know leopards.

Speaker 4: 16:34

Leopards are not in danger neither, neither are our lions, none of that stuff. It's. That's all. That's all fake. So sort of a you know, it's sort of one of those things that you just kind of put up with even though there's really no basis and truth in it.

Speaker 5: 16:46

It's part of the deal. I saw Blood Origins had a post recently about elephants and I believe it was like the prime minister or president whatever they call them in Botswana was basically complaining about these European countries were not wanting them to open permits for elephants. And he's like, well, I'll send you you 60 000 and they can free range in germany. And, uh, you guys can see how you like it. You tell us and then we'll tell you how to deal with it, which is an interesting yeah, because everybody's got this outside perspective.

Speaker 4: 17:17

That I think has been somewhat twisted, I mean we're feeling it out here in the west with these wolves. I mean you, you know these wolves were put there. They went up to northern Alberta and got these wolves that were never native here. They never were the wolves that we had here originally 120 years ago were, you know, 70, 80 pound wolves, and now we got 200 pound moose killers here and they're devastating our game herds down here, just devastating them here.

Speaker 4: 17:46

And they're they're devastating our, our game herds down here, just devastating, um, the elk, the, the moose, um, our, you know, our mule deer. You know everything that, everything that's coming, it's, it's a scourge of the west and you know I mean I'm from a state right now that thinks that's a great thing. You know our fishing game is doing nothing but trying to promote them and you know they're horrible for our cattle industry, they're horrible for horrible for the life of our big game. You know, I know people very well over in Idaho that, as a matter of fact, the guy who produces our TV show for us lives in northern Idaho and what was at one time the most premier elk habitat in the world really, and the wolves moved in there and I mean you're lucky for you to see it out there now. You know, so it's, it's, uh, it is not only in africa, but it's, it's that that misinformation is a uh, it's a scourge everywhere, you know.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Um oh, go ahead frank hi, steve.

Speaker 2: 18:38

Um, you know I was just gonna. It's. It's just crazy to think, like, when you're over there, like, and you and you're talking to like some of the locals or the people that are running these places, like what is their mindset? Like looking at us and be like, wow, like is it? Are these laws hurting them too? Financially as well? Because I know you know big game hunting over there is a huge way for them to make lots of money and you know it's great for the villages too, where you know I'm not sure if every place does this, but I know a lot of the people we've talked to a lot of that food is donated to the families and to the tribes and everything like that. So these laws are also our people are thinking we're doing a noble thing, but it's really like maybe having a different effect over there, one of the biggest influxes of cash probably to that area.

Speaker 5: 19:32

That's not yeah.

Speaker 4: 19:33

Well so, you know, if it wasn't for trophy hunting quote, unquote if it wasn't for sport hunting and trophy hunting, there wouldn't be an Animals Africa, because they have no value to those people. If they're in there crashing their crops and everything else, they have no value. So what hunters did in the us hunters especially was they put, they made those animals worth something. They're worth more alive than they are dead. Right, and yes, we're, we're shooting them as, as you know, hunters would go over there and shoot them, but the thing is is we're taking access? You know we're not. We're not we're shooting them. As you know, hunters would go over there and shoot them, but the thing is is we're taking access? You know we're not. We're not.

Speaker 4: 20:07

We're actually helping that whole ecosystem and you know, like I said, you can't import meat back from Africa. So every ounce of that stuff goes to, you know, goes to those people and they all are dependent on that. So, yeah, I mean all these things that you know. Our people think they're doing people a favor over there. They're actually decimating the game Because as soon as those animals have no value, they're going to kill them all because they don't need them, you know, and it's just bad. They have no value. Yep, absolutely. So yeah, it's a pretty well-proven fact. If it wasn't for hunters, there wouldn't even be game in Africa at this point. They just wouldn't be there. They'd have them all killed off.

Speaker 3: 20:47

They're the sole reason for conservation of any kind I can imagine, Absolutely.

Speaker 4: 20:51

Absolutely. It's a different world over there. Really it's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 21:00

I definitely believe it. One more on the Africa subject before we start moving on. If you tackle hippo, is there any point of a crocodile?

Speaker 4: 21:12

You know, maybe I don't know, I mean a croc's pretty cool, I've seen them before Getting them out again out of the water because I don't really have a big desire, know, desire, to shoot something, have it go in the water and just trying to fish it out of there. You know there's a chance, sorry you won't get it. So, um, you know, and as a bow hunter, I'm a bow hunter, I completely I don't rifle hunt. Um, actually, the last animal I shot with a with a rifle was a bighorn sheep in 1996 and I could have shot him with a bow. And when a bighorn sheep doesn't mean as much to you as it should, it's time to do something different.

Speaker 4: 21:47

And I, I'm not against gun hunting, I, it's fine, I still rifle hunt predators and things like that. But uh, for me it's all about bow. So one of the realities about bow hunting is you don't always die right where you shoot them, you know. So, um, with a croc, and actually to some extent even a hippo, I mean you'd have to be, you know, you'd have to have the right situation to make sure they didn't get in the water and you lose them, you know yeah, gotcha, yeah that's, and it's all those prayers like I grew up watching, you know animal planning and stuff like that and all those.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Every animal fascinates me like it truly does. But something about africa like those it's it's a whole nother world and I think that's part of it. It's like we don't get to see that and I think that's like, listen, I love moose, I love bear, I love love doing all that. But there's something different about places like africa, australia, too, like australia is a whole other. Almost everything there can kill you as well, and it's just like we're so not used to that and you know we don't have that access so easily. You know that it's it's it's something that really draws in your attention. It's definitely.

Speaker 4: 22:56

It adds a whole different, whole different wheel on that cart. You know, as far as paying attention to what you're doing and all that thing, I've never hunted Australia. I'd like to at some point. Um, I'm not a fan of poisonous snakes and australia has more than any place in the world but africa's got their share too.

Speaker 2: 23:12

Yeah, yeah, which, yeah, which says a lot, because africa does have a lot, like I know, the um, the puff adder I'm really big into snakes. Like I know the puff adder is like one of the most dangerous over there and you know they have, uh, certain places in africa.

Speaker 2: 23:24

They got gaboon vipers, they got cobras and, I believe, black mambas too, as well, the bad ones yeah yeah, but then you go to a place like australia and like every insect too, even the thorns, like I think I saw a video, it's like there was a thorn like this big in australia. It's like even the bushes try to kill you. Like, like it's. It's just absolutely insane.

Speaker 4: 23:47

There's a reason. They put all the convicts there to start with. That was actually how they settled. Australia. It was made of basically a prison colony.

Speaker 4: 23:53

Yeah, so yeah. But now you know Africa. Like I said, it's got the crazy snakes. I've personally never seen a snake in Africa knock on wood crazy snakes. I've personally never seen a snake in africa knock on wood. Um, and uh, I, I know they're there, um, but we usually go in like july and august, which is their winter. So, um, it's, it's a little cooler although I mean it's still in the 70s a lot during the daytime. So it's not like it's cold. It just gets a little bit cooler at night than it does it. You know, in the summertime over there it's 120 in the middle of the day and 100 at night, you know. So those snakes are going everywhere then. So, but I had an interesting story the first trip over. I had a pH tell me a story about black mambas and he said he was working on a like an irrigation pond and there was these two mambas out in there and he basically took his shovel and killed one and hit one of them in the head.

Speaker 4: 24:44

And he said it turned its white belly up, which you know it was upside down, and so he got it killed. But he said the other one slivered off real quick. So he went on and got in his truck because he didn't have a gun or anything and went back to his house or wherever, came back with a 12 gauge shotgun and he said he just pulled up right by where the dead snake was and rolled, just cracked the window down and stuck the barrel out the window and he said it was within a couple of minutes. That freaking other mama was looking at my eye right there and he blew his head off with the shotgun. Because apparently they mate for life and when you kill the mate you've got to kill the other one, because I, apparently he's, according to him, is that those, uh, that other one's going to stay there and basically kill everything that comes close to that carcass?

Speaker 2: 25:27

So yeah, it's a badass snake. I think I've heard that. I do believe I've heard that, and also like they are the one snake that chases people down and stuff like that, and will chase horses down too, like you know, or animals down, and they'll actually chase them and and like bite them yeah, they can move like 40 miles an hour.

Speaker 4: 25:48

You're gonna hurt them. Um, they're like. I said, I've never seen one, but I've heard those stories and I asked that my uh, the ph. I said, well, how big was? He said, oh, he's about three and a half meters, so that's like 10 feet.

Speaker 2: 26:01

Yeah, they're big too, yeah they're. They're big snakes, yeah um they're really, they're really big, I think you know, um, I think cobras get, king cobras get the longest and that's like an indian stuff, like that. But I think mamas just aren't as muscular as, uh, king cobras are.

Speaker 4: 26:20

Yeah, they're a smaller body but they're long and super fast. You know they have over there. They have spitting cobras as well as ant kings, but like I said, knock on wood, I've never seen one over there. Honestly, I don't really need to see one.

Speaker 3: 26:35

Yeah, no, especially after.

Speaker 5: 26:39

A picture works probably pretty well for that.

Speaker 4: 26:42

Yeah, no, I just watch them on video.

Speaker 2: 26:43

It's good enough for me, especially hearing that story, I mean, gee, like that is, yeah, that's scary, that is, that's like stuff out of a horror movie, like type type of ordeal for for sure, yeah, it really is.

Speaker 4: 26:56

It's, but that's part of it, that's part of the draw to africa. I mean, you just literally never know what you're gonna see or what you're gonna get now.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Now you know, big thing that we, you know, we all want to talk you know about, is, of course, hex as well. How, where, where did this idea come from? Like there's, there's so much scientific, you know science back that's going through this. This isn't like your regular type of technology or camo, or you know this is very unique and you know I imagine there's a lot of people that have all their mixed reviews about this, but for for you, where did this start? And then you know, how did this idea even even even come up with in the beginning? And you know where you went from then to now. I mean, it's truly amazing.

Speaker 4: 27:54

To be honest with you, I tell everybody it was kind of a lucky accident. Honestly, I've always been kind of a science geek. I, you know, I'm, I'm, I love researching stuff and going down wormholes and all that kind of stuff and rabbit holes on the internet and all this kind of stuff, and it was just kind of a lucky accident. Um, I was on online and actually was kind of digging down into how the internal compass works on animals and how they are actually picking up the electromagnetic field of the earth. And that, you know, birds see it visually, but anything with an internal compass is able to pick up the electromagnetic field of the earth. And that, you know, birds see it visually but anything with an internal compass is able to pick up the electrical field of the earth and that's how they navigate you know so well. Um, and there's a couple of different mechanisms that are. One of them is very well understood and the other one is not as well understood. But the fact of the matter is is that if an animal can navigate, he's able to pick up this electromagnetic field. Well, luckily, it wasn't very long later, somehow or another, I was down another wormhole and come to the realization that what? What's produced electrically by all living beings is also an extreme low frequency electromagnetic field, only slightly higher than that of the earth. So, um, you know, I've been around animals my whole life, my, my, uh. My grandfather was a cattle rancher and really loved his horses and you know he used to always tell me you know, keep calm, keep your heart rate down, because that animals can sense that and get nervous. If you're nervous, that kind of thing, no matter what you look like. So you know, I'd seen that, you know, play out forever. And of course, when we bow hunt, we know that when an animal's close, it's usually not very long and even if they don't smell you or I even know, you'll just watch their body language change and they'll get a little more nervous and pretty quick they're going to take off and so, yeah. So I mean, when I saw those two things come together, it's like, ok, well, look, we know, that's proven that they're navigating with this.

Speaker 4: 29:52

What all living beings is putting out is a very, very similar field. Why couldn't they use it for something else? So it was interesting enough that we actually started looking around for fabrics that could block it. Blocking the electrical field is actually pretty simple. I have a buddy who's an electrical engineer which helped a little on this, but really, if you're going to block an electrical field, you're going to use what's called a Faraday cage, which is basically a grid of conductive material that's sized and shaped in such a way that's going to block a particular wavelength of energy. So that's what we did.

Speaker 4: 30:17

Actually, the first fabric that we ever tested was a very expensive fabric for the medical industry and it was made for ghost pains in amputees. So like, say, somebody lost their arm. You know, your brain makes it feel like it's still there. Well, apparently you can wrap this conductive mesh around the arm and it takes those away. And so the big thing for us was is that it had a conductive grid and we knew the size of the wavelength we needed to block.

Speaker 4: 30:45

So this was as close as we could find commercially at the time, but it was good enough. It didn't. It didn't block nearly as good as what we have now, but it did give us enough to kind of give us an idea. We were on the right track and you know, being in the industry, I've got a lot of connections and and I knew a lot of people and we're able to find a person that actually this guy was out of New Zealand that was able to, you know, actually make a fabric to our specifications with the grid that we needed, and we decided conductive carbon was a better way to go than stainless steel. That's what the other fabric had. It was stainless steel, not very comfortable, as you might imagine, but the carbon is highly conductive. But it's also very flexible. It lasts well, holds up good and it's really comfortable. So, anyway, what's that? I'm sorry.

Speaker 5: 31:35

It's like a carbon nanotube, like Faraday cage, built into the fabric. It is.

Speaker 4: 31:40

Well, so that is exactly what's built into the fabric of the sterning cage. We're actually using conductive carbon yarn and it's spun together and then woven into this interconnected grid in the fabric. It's very technical fabric.

Speaker 4: 31:54

There's not a lot of mills that can do it and it's not cheap fabric by any means. But basically that whole piece of fabric is going to be conducted from one side or the other. Basically, that whole piece of fabric is going to be conducted from one side or the other. So when an electrical field hits that, the size and shape and conductivity of that grid is such that it's going to capture that If you're not touching ground right, then it's actually going to just be held in capacitance. So when you touch ground it's going to go to ground. So real basic electronics. There's nothing fancy or special about how we do it. It's just the fact of you know, blocking what's coming out of the body. That was able.

Speaker 4: 32:28

And that's what all of our patents are based on too. We have five issued US patents and about 30 international patents. So, yeah, so that's kind of in a nutshell how that all came about and how it works. But you know, with HEX it's important also to block as much as you possibly can on your body. So we sell it as a system. We sell a shirt, pant and a head cover, and there are several different ways to get that.

Speaker 4: 32:53

But that's sort of the minimum thing that you need to get to see the advantage, you know, and I guess the advantage to talk about that is, you know, we know these animals are picking this up. So so when you take that away to the animal, you're more like an inanimate object, so you can get away with a lot more movement. Um, when animals do you know, see or whatever, a lot of times they don't act the same way. A lot of times with like a deer and things like that you're, they're almost confusion. I've had white tails starting to walk right to me because they and right when I'm right in the open and they they see it stood around in a way that it's like they don't recognize you for what you are. It's a really neat experience.

Speaker 4: 33:28

Um, you know, with birds, like you know, we have turkey season coming right up. Uh, hacks is an absolute game changer with turkeys because you can move, especially as a bow hunter. Um, as a bow hunter, the hardest thing to do is be able to come to get full, full draw on a turkey. You know they pick up movement super. You know I mean any movement. That I mean they react to immediately. When you take your electrical field away to that bird, your movement is now like an inanimate object. So, getting the full draw, I mean I shot over 60 with a bow. Now I don't use a blind. We set out in the open. You can see a bunch of our videos on our YouTube channel. But, um, you know, in every species all over the country, um, and I mean you just don't get busted drawing. You know, I I actually try to make sure that I draw, why they're looking at me now, facing right to me, and I mean I've never one time been busted drawn on one wearing hacks.

Speaker 4: 34:19

So it's a. It's a game changer with with for bow hunters any turkey hunter really but you can get away with movement. You can't, you know, jump up and down and do jumping jacks. There is a limit to everything, of course, but in a lot of our videos we're really kind of pushing that limit as far as we can. But, yeah, it's a gigantic difference. It really is. You know, remember, birds see it visually. So anything that sees it visually is going to be ultra-affected by waterfowl snakes anyway too.

Speaker 5: 34:48

So yeah, I mean, you know that, you hear about it, you watch Shark Week, you hear about sharks, especially like might be the most publicly known example of animals that are famous for picking up that electromagnetic field. But I'd imagine for people and everything and I'm not an expert, I'm an engineer but I'm not a biologist and like it would be different based on the species, for what is the frequency would be? How did you determine what frequency to target, or was it more of just hitting a wider range?

Speaker 4: 35:24

Yeah, so there's a specific frequency that we're we're trying to shoot. It's about 10 or 10 hertz, it's about where it is. Um, so it's a pretty low frequency, right, yeah, extreme low frequency actually, um, and so you know, with the grid I mean designing it to to pick it, to block that. You've got two things. Number one you have to be more conductive than the medium that you're in. So like, for instance and you mentioned shark week um, you know we had a wetsuit line and we're relaunching it now. But, uh, you know our logo's on a lot of the scientists on shark week and they're actually wearing that because the shark has what's called an ampulay of lorenzini. It's actually an organ specifically designed to pick up electrical current and that's one of the things they use to hunt with. And so you know, when they block it in the water, you know they've seen a much different reaction and much less aggression and things like that from sharks. So, anyway, in the water, seawater is very conductive, so our, the hex aquatic fabric, is about 40% more conductive than our, than we use for hunting, because the air is not as conductive, so you don't have to have as much conductivity in it to block it. So, yeah, and as far as how they do it, like I said, the sharks got the ampullae of Lorenzini, but birds have a molecule that I call cryptochrome. It's a specific kind of cryptochrome, it's cryptochrome 3. But that is a highly conductive molecule that are in the eyes of all birds and that's what they know they're seeing that electrical field of the earth with. They know it. It's visible. That's very, very well proven, very well understood. Some mammals have it as well. They found cryptochrome in caninesines, which makes sense because, yeah, we actually sell. Uh, we have a part of a company called hex tactical which actually sells only to the military. We sell to, uh, special forces in particular. Um, don't sell a lot. They buy about 50 to 100 sets from us a year, but they actually tell us that that allows them to get about 60 to 90 seconds more, more time before dogs alert when they're going into covert situations where dogs are the alert system. So, like I said, canines have that. They know. Bears have it as well, another species that HECS makes a giant difference with.

Speaker 4: 37:39

But as far as like deer and elk and those kind of things, the, the internal compass is tied mostly to a molecule called magnetite. Um, we have magnetite in our brains as well. And you know I mean it's me, for instance I mean I can always, I pretty much always know where north is, just by feel. You know, and a lot of people have that ability still and I think probably 100 years ago it was a lot more prevalent. But you know, but the more migratory an animal, the more magnetite they have in their brain. So like the magnetite that's in caribou up north is massive compared to, you know, other animals and cause. I mean they're using that now gate with.

Speaker 4: 38:18

So not quite as well understood, but once you block it, the result, I mean it's undeniable that once you block it and see what's going on, it's a difference that you know with deer, elk, things like that you're not necessarily going to, it's not going to make you and keep you from getting busted every time, nothing will. But if you've got the wind right and you know you're not making noise and you're kind of holding still a little bit, it's going to be crazy how much difference you see it's pretty obvious once you actually experience it wow, now it's like that you said, oh sorry.

Speaker 5: 38:56

One more question. Uh, inanimate objects, now I guess, like trees and stuff would be alive. I don't know if there's any. If you're aware, do they? Would they also emit? I'd imagine it'd probably be an even lower frequency than that but uh yeah, so, so.

Speaker 4: 39:12

So the through heart rate and just basic bodily functions, I mean all living beings are electric. I mean we're running literally off electric. You're nervous, so our exactly so our field is is actually something that's much higher. It's higher than that of the earth, the, the fields that, like inanimate objects, put off, they really are lower than what the earth puts off. So it's, it's, it's one of those things that if they put off a field that they can, that they can see or feel, it's very minor.

Speaker 4: 39:40

Um, and one of the ways we know this is you know, if you're ever out on a windy day let's just take turkeys, for instance, because they're little famous ones for movement um, if you're out on a windy day and there's stuff moving all over and you move your finger like this, that bird sees you immediately it's because you're the only thing out there that's putting out an electric film, the only movement, that is all that other movement isn't. So when you take that away now, your movement is more like, you know, branches in the wind and things like that that they don't instinctually have fear of.

Speaker 2: 40:06

So yeah now I was actually, but before I was gonna bring that up and that makes absolute sense why you can kind of get away with just just more, especially when when you Turkey hunting because now you're more like something that's just completely natural to them with with an obviously, like you said, as long as you're not doing jumping jacks and stuff like that, what I what we talk about a lot is all these things are not going to make you the next best hunter and you're always going to shoot the biggest animal and stuff like this, but it is going to help, you know it's. It's going to maybe give you that, that extra boost that you that you kind of need, where maybe you're you're just on more animals often or maybe you know you're you get more shot opportunities or whatever the case. Just like you know you could say anything for what? Ozonics and stuff like ozonics is not going to make you the best hunter in the world. It's not going to be perfect every single time, but it can help exactly.

Speaker 4: 41:16

Yeah, I mean hex is a tool, just like everything else is a tool, um, you know, I mean, you can't fix everything with a hammer either, but, uh, you know, sometimes that's the tool you need, um, and and, like I said, it's not going to help you necessarily in every situation. I mean, if the wind's blowing from you to the deer, he's probably gonna smell you. I mean, it's just that you know that's probably what's going to happen before very long. But in those situations where you know you've got all the conditions in your favor, you know, like, for instance, if you're white tail, how much you've been in a tree standing and the deer come by and stop and look in your tree for no reason at all. You didn't move, got the wind right, and they aren't looking in every tree. They're looking in one year and they don't look into the other one.

Speaker 4: 41:59

So with hex that that goes away a lot, because that's 99 of the time. They're just, they're sensing, they know that, that they're feeling that they're close to another big living being. And we're big animals and you know, in nature, especially over here, um, you know, in africa we're not quite as, but I mean we're one of the biggest things out there, body size wise. So we're putting out a lot of energy and you know, when that animal picks that up, it's it's his instincts kick in and, okay, he may not be necessarily fearful of it, but he knows he's got to identify that. You know to be calm again. So take that away and then you just get a lot more opportunity. You're opportunity. You're not invisible, you're not like I said, it doesn't make you better hunter. Um, I tell everybody, use the, use the proven tactics and just put a hex on top of it and you're gonna get. You're just gonna have better experiences and more shot opportunities.

Speaker 5: 42:44

That kind of thing yeah, that's what I think I've noticed, like as a bow hunter like you only have what I call the bubble. It's like you only have so much time inside that bubble, so maybe you know, adding this to your system will give you, you know, x amount of more time in that bubble, which every second in that time in that bubble is more opportunity to make that shot.

Speaker 4: 43:04

And you know, kind of get the, get the right opportunity yeah, I mean, when we talk about the bubble, that was basically what I was referring to when you know when that animal gets close. You don't got so much time and you know they're, they're going to know, you're there. Actually, a conversation I had with Randy Ulmer, who's a good friend of mine and bow hunting legend I mean, matter of fact, he's my all time archery hero forever but I was talking to Randy about hunting mule deer and you know Randy's killed more mule deer than just about anybody over the 200 inch class and you know he he purposely tries to stay so he never gets under 40 yards. He'd rather be 50 or 60 because he's, and he made this. He said if you're under 40 yards and and that buck's bedded, he said they're going to know you're there and they're going to come up running always and and you know and I don't know that it's always, but on the kind of bucks he's hunting it probably is.

Speaker 4: 43:54

You know those, those deer have been around long enough and they have enough knowledge that they're going to. You know they're, they're, they're gonna they've, they know that there's something close, they know it's big and it's probably not going to be healthy for them. So Randy would always stay, you know, 50, 60 yards out. Randy's one of the best archers probably that's ever lived, so that kind of a shot isn't a big deal for him. Um, and he killed a lot of big bucks doing that. But you know, that always resonated with me too, with and, and actually that conversation happened right when we were first, uh, kind of experimenting with hacks. So it was sort of fortuitous that uh, the you know bowhunting guru like that would be able to actually have that, have that conversation with me at the ata show. So anyway, um, yeah, just another, another, another part of the story, I guess.

Speaker 2: 44:39

I think right now a lot of people in there, they're going over every hunt and you know something that like when, when we said that, like I'm looking back on so many hunts and where I thought everything was perfect, but that deer still did everything. Like it's not like and everyone knows it's not like they, they're just looking randomly, it's like they're staring you dead in your soul and they're like I, they're right there, I got you. Like there, there's something there. And you did like, you said everything correct. Like now with saddle hunting, like we're behind that tree, it's. You think that everything's perfectly good, you're not moving. You know you're everything's broken up, you your sense going the correct way and you're like what, what the hell? Like why it's not making sense, but now it makes so much sense.

Speaker 4: 45:36

Those situations are about 99 electrical field, those situations like you've just described. Most of the time they're relatively close, except for me it's 30 to 40 yards on deer is what I'm going to see. The most benefit, I mean I don't see it necessarily at 100 yards. Um, not with deer. Now with pronghorn antelope I do, and personally I think if they ever look in the eyes of pronghorn I, I think they're going to find cryptocrypto. I really do, cause I mean we've just done some crazy stuff with pronghorn. But you know it's, it's one of those things I mean, you know, nothing else made sense and as a as a hunter, I've had those experiences my whole life and it it's like, okay, this actually does make sense. And when you're able to block it, I mean you're still going to get busted if the wind switches or if you do something stupid, or you know, I mean all that, I mean you still got to be a hunter. You know it's not going to cure all that, but it's going to be an advantage, it's going to help. You know it's going to help significantly.

Speaker 4: 46:29

Um, you know, just kind of to prove the the point, last year, um, I actually shot three turkeys while wearing an orange vest. I never wore camel all year in turkey season at all, not a stitch of it. I wore plain hex gear, um, but I actually wore an orange vest and those those videos are online, um, on the hex style screen channel on youtube. But, um, you know, just to prove that the electrical field to a bird is more important than than anything, it is the electrical field that gets you busted with this movement. It's not your movement, it's the electrical field that busts you. And just to prove that I did that. And just to prove the camel didn't matter either. You know so kind of I know this is. This is controversial to turkey hunters.

Speaker 2: 47:08

I understand it, but um, it's nuts when you really try it oh, there's a lot of turkey hunters that are probably mad right now.

Speaker 4: 47:17

Oh yeah you know, and and I mean you know, I mean the camo industry doesn't necessarily they're not our biggest fans, you know. You know they spend an awful lot of money making people believe that blending in matters and you know, maybe it does to a certain extent, but uh, that electrical field. When you're talking about birds especially turkey and waterfowl, the electrical field is the number one thing. I'm absolutely convinced of it which they, they need.

Speaker 2: 47:42

They, they use that electrical field way more than, you know, deer do, especially when it comes to migration and and everything like that. I mean, I, I can only imagine, like when you're talking about waterfowl, like you know, they just it seems like they, yes, they, they just always know, they just always know it's time to head south, which way it's. They don't have a compass, they don't, they don't have any of what we have and you know, you throw it back to sharks as well, like there's just certain things that these animals just know how to do and it's just connected in such a scientifically found way that I think that we'll never fully understand as humans. And it's you know, we can have an idea, but we're never really going to see like we really could, like they really can.

Speaker 4: 48:30

Well, and personally I think that 200 years ago we understood this a lot better than we do now. Honestly, you know, the Native Americans talked about energy and all the stuff that they talked about. They had rituals that would cleanse their soul or whatever, and, honestly, what they were doing was relaxing themselves and making their heart rate less. The other thing about Native Americans is they were always grounded. We are wearing rubber sole boots and all that kind of thing, and you know so we're not grounded any longer. We're not in touch with the earth like we once were, and you know, I mean, grounding is a big part of this whole thing too. I mean, you can you know, if you're touching the ground, you're still going to put it on an electrical field, but it's going to be much more subdued than it would be if you were, if you're like we are wearing rubber boots and maybe run around underground at all time. You know. So there's a lot to that whole. That's a whole different rabbit hole, by the way I've heard that as well, I've.

Speaker 2: 49:28

I can't remember where I read that, but some guy, he, he actually said that he no longer wears, you know, sneakers or shoes or anything like that. He just honestly walks around barefoot now and just you know he talked about how, um, how it's made him feel and his awareness to a lot of things, and you know what it's done for for his body and you know just other situations, like you said, what we could completely get into. But yeah, they're for for humans. We've lost connection to a lot of things. You know I, I tell my patients every day at work.

Speaker 2: 49:59

You know we talk about I go there's going to be eventually a point where we're really not going to have any more hair anymore. We don't what's what's hair really for? It's to help keep the body warm. But guess what? We wear clothes 24 seven. You know we wear hats, skulliesies, we we wear layers in the winter. We really our bodies really don't need to have hair and that's why you like you said you look probably 200 years ago people are just probably a lot hairier than they are now and you're starting to see that people are becoming less and less hairier. You know just so many things have have changed. I mean I, I can't even imagine what another. I mean we won't't even imagine what another. I mean we won't be here, but what another hundred years? You know what what humans are going to look like.

Speaker 4: 50:43

Yeah, it's, it's hard to say, but I mean, even when you look back at the pioneers, for instance, you know, back in the Daniel Boone, david Crockett days, those guys were were, they had internal compass from hell. I mean, they they were, they were navigating things and yeah, they're using landmarks and the sun and all that kind of stuff. But I mean, you know, it's, sam, the reason that they probably had a lot more, a lot closer connection with the earth and really helped in that, in that navigation, and they probably had better senses as far as you know animals around them too. You know, I don't think it's necessarily isolated and that people don't have it. I can actually tell you a real quick story about, you know, when we were approached by a military advisory group I was lucky enough to that one of the people who is in that was a guy named Gary Luck.

Speaker 4: 51:30

He's a four-star retired army general and basically the head of all special forces for a long, long time. We went to Gary's house. Just an amazing guy Actually had Manuel Noriega's underwear in a frame because his boys went down and caught him. But anyway, he said that he totally understood because he had that. That he said he can tell you if somebody is behind a wall, even if he can't see him or hear him, he just knows that they're. So you know. He said that that tell you if somebody's behind a wall, even if he can't see them or hear them, he just knows they're there. So he said that that's one of the ways that they actually pick the most elite special forces is there. He called it situational awareness, but that's really what that is is knowing where people are, even though you don't really have a good way of knowing that they're there. So, again, we can go down rabbit holes all day long.

Speaker 2: 52:22

I don't know if we have time for that, but there's lots of them. All right, man, I, I, I can, I can believe that and it's you know, something also that's really unique about this it this is not just a hunting you know brand, like you guys go into just so many different things. And you know for photographers, you know for divers, um, I imagine, for, um, you know, surfers, when you you know, I think you said, that you're going to be releasing another, you know, re-releasing your, your wetsuit. I believe you said right.

Speaker 4: 52:45

Yeah, so our, our wetsuits were formerly ran by a licensee and that that relationship kind of went south on us. So we rescinded the license and we're currently in the process of relaunching a wetsuit line. And also the one that I'm really passionate about honestly is a real tight fit suit for snorkelers. I think that market would be the biggest you know in the world, honestly, yeah, yeah, you know, if you're going on vacation and you're snorkeling, number one you want to have great encounters with fish, and not only sharks, but all fish. You know they're sensitive to these fields, so you have a lot better, a lot better reaction around them. But also, you know it does provide some protection with sharks too. You know you're at least taking away one of the things that they sense and and so that that's one of those things I think we can. We can probably do pretty well with you know, down the road.

Speaker 4: 53:42

I'm a passionate hunter, so I talk very much. I mean, I I'm comfortable talking. Honey, um, I'm probably too close to the ocean to suit me right now personally. So, uh, I'm not a big that's a big swimmer in that. So you know, um, we have, uh, one guy that's that's helped us a lot is forrest galante. He's um, he's had a show called extinct or alive on animal planet and then several others and he's done a bunch of shark week stuff. He's had a show called Extinct or Alive on Animal Planet and then several others and he's done a bunch of Shark Week stuff. He's actually a marine biologist and a wildlife biologist Very, very big hex guy. So you know, he's one of the people that we rely on, if you know, on that, especially the aquatic side of things. So yeah, I can't be the expert in everything I can. Yeah, you know, like I said, you got to follow your passion.

Speaker 4: 54:19

So I just stick with the hunting for the most part when we're, when we're talking most of the time.

Speaker 5: 54:23

But but hex does have a big uh, you know, um, and it's a lot more than hunting and it's really kind of a cool, cool feeling to be a hunter and you know, all I care about is getting close and shooting a stick into something you know and uh but, to see it actually be in use and in a lot of other places is pretty satisfying now I guess as an engineer I'm super and when I was kind of looking into what x does and how do you like, what kind of product testing do you go through, because you know with any engineering project it's trial and error right.

Speaker 5: 54:56

So, like you said, you just went from you know stainless steel faraday cage to you know a carbon fiber, you know fabric, you know yarn that you interweave into the uh. But how do you know that you're, I guess, masking that? You know, is it just like you're using hall sensors? You know, I'd imagine you would to some extent, but then you actually got to get out there and you know, prove that testosterone. So you talk a little bit about that. Yeah, so so the way we test, it.

Speaker 4: 55:24

And the cool thing about you know what we put out is it's measurable. There's meters that and we actually have one. If you ever see us at a trade show, you're going to see our meter that we, you know, we have a couple of them and and they're a scientific meter that actually picks up and it's specifically picks up extreme low frequency field, so we can, we can basically take out all the other electrons. There's all kinds of electrical cars and especially around, you know, as you can imagine, around trade shows, everybody's got a cell phone or anything else. But this picks up extremeal frequency field and that was one of the tools that we used to to fine-tune what we were doing. Um, you know it wasn't a one-shot deal that we went from stainless steel to carbon. It was about a 20 shot deal. You know. You know I mean we, we understood what we were shooting to do, but you know, I mean there was some of them that we tested that didn't work and if it didn't, if it didn't work on the meter, it wasn't going to work in real life, and you know. So we use those meters to block what we're doing In the aquatic world. However, it's very difficult to measure that in the water very effectively. So what? We?

Speaker 4: 56:31

We actually had an Arabian cat shark here at our plant for about three years and we did all of our testing with with that cat shark.

Speaker 4: 56:40

So it was really interesting because when we first got him he he would eat these little fish called silversides and that's what we try to feed him, and if you stuck it in his mouth, eventually he'd finally chew one up.

Speaker 4: 56:52

When he first got there and we, we developed a probe we actually there's a study out of the university of florida on this particular shark, that where they were actually picking up electrical fields under like six inches of sand, and so we came up building a we called it probe, but basically it had two diodes that came out and it was running an electrical current between the two diodes and we we actually put it at the same level, same energy as what the human heart put out, and we would put that energy in the water and it would be like in no time at all, that shark was immediately hunting, he was going around and he would grab that and bite it and everything else and we started using that to feed him with, because you know we had so much trouble feeding him because, you know, without the electrical field the shark, they didn't want to eat it.

Speaker 4: 57:41

But when he put the electrical field to it, all of a sudden, now he was, he was a predator again. So, um, you know, that was just one of the testings that we did with the underwater, so it was kind of a fun. Kind of a fun thing. You know, we learned a lot about cat sharks. We we didn't realize that it was a female until we started seeing this weird stuff in the laying on the, on the coral and stuff, and it was actually eggs, it was actually laying eggs.

Speaker 5: 58:02

So anyway, yeah, yeah wow, that's really cool, yeah, I mean. So what when you wrap the? Uh that kid, there's two diodes that you're running a current through in the hex you saw that we wrapped that with the aquatic fabric, the one.

Speaker 4: 58:20

when we finally hit on aquatic fabric that worked well, you know it would be he would ignore it completely. It was like it wasn't even there. So that's how we knew in the water that we had the right, the right combination with the grid.

Speaker 5: 58:33

Right, ok, so you pass your magnetometer test or Hall sensor array of sensors to pick up that magnetic field in those low frequencies, which I imagine is probably a challenge in and of itself to find, and then I guess, in terms of getting out into the woods or getting out after turkeys, kind of what did that process of gearing up to what you got now look like?

Speaker 4: 58:55

Yeah, so originally, you know, to get a patent number one you got to prove something works. So we actually incorporated a guy who has an animal degree out of Oregon State University and he did a study and it's still on our website. He did a study with horses, cattle and mule deer over here in Central Oregon. Uh, he did a study with horses, cattle and mule deer over here in central oregon. It was about a almost a four month long study and uh was able to actually quantify the differences with with both horses, cattle and then also mule deer. He was in an area that had a lot of wild mule deer that were basically coming into fields every night. So he was working with the same deer over and over um, and so that was our first one that that was enabled us to get our patents issued.

Speaker 4: 59:42

But after that, I mean it's it's a lot of it's just getting out there and seeing what it does. You know, and I was the biggest skeptic there was, for I mean, it took two full years for me to come out and say you know what this actually works, um, you know, because I was just like every skeptic. Well, maybe it was, uh, the coincidence, or maybe it was this, or maybe it was that after a while, when it keeps hitting you in the face over and over, you realize it's not a coincidence and it actually does work so.

Speaker 5: 1:00:01

Yeah, I mean it is definitely an abstract concept that goes against the grain in a lot of areas that you know you could definitely see how other people might perceive it as you know, like oh, it's just one of those things, but you know, if you do the science, you do the testing and you got that to back up it, you know, kind of let that be, it does speak for itself yeah, look, the hunting world is full of gimmicks, it just is.

Speaker 4: 1:00:27

Um, yeah, and you know when, when we came out, um, you know, I mean, I I was very successful with the string company and I had a lot of really close friends that were pretty big names in this industry and all that. And when we came out with this, they looked at us like we were like we'd lost our minds, you know, because it was so abstract and so out there, you know, and so, like the first year, I mean, we, we sold our suits I had, we gave a bunch away just to people that were that we knew would see the difference, and that was one of the ways that we kind of got our, got everything started. But, you know, everybody's skeptical and I get it, and there's a lot of gimmicks. But the one thing that I and I'm very proud of this fact, you know, we've done the NWTF show out in Nashville.

Speaker 4: 1:01:13

This was our eighth time out this year and I don't know how many thousands of suits I've sold at that show over the years and we have yet to have one person walk up to us at that show and tell us it doesn't work. And we're making some big claims Instead in Nashville. Now I mean, I don't even have to talk in Nashville very much. The customers are there telling their stories, showing their videos. You know, and it just makes you feel good that you know, because in a show like that, if you were selling something that didn't work the next year you would get your tail handed to you, you know and it just doesn't happen.

Speaker 4: 1:01:42

We do about 30 consumer shows a year now all over the country and I mean, like I said, if somebody in there, there's been a rare occasion when somebody would come up and say you know, man, I didn't see the. You know, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Man, I didn't see the. You know, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Most of the time, if you dig into how they're using it, it's usually that it's usually that they're either not using a full system or they have unrealistic expectations.

Speaker 4: 1:02:03

I had one guy that told me it didn't work and I said well, tell me about your experience. He said, well, I drove out in my truck and there were some deer in the field and I got out and I walked out there and then I ran off. Probably did you know, because you're not invisible. So you know, we kind of suffer from what I call the too good to be true syndrome, because most things that look too good to be true usually are too good to be true. But you know, like I said, all the stuff that we show on our TV show.

Speaker 4: 1:02:29

We have a TV show called Playing with Hex which is on the Pursuit channel. A lot you know. You're usually on about seven days a week most of the time. But you know, on our YouTube channel, which is the heck Stealth Screen channel on YouTube, everything that we do is 100% fair chase. It's all filmed and it's all just like it happened. I mean it's. You know, I'm not a good enough editor to fake all that stuff. So you know, and like I said, a lot of stuff is sent in by customers too, and you know, it's just a cool feeling to have something that actually does work, even though it's awful easy not to believe it. And I get it, I do. But the thing is is I have a lot of skeptics that haven't tried it.

Speaker 5: 1:03:10

I'm very made to have so yeah, yeah, I've personally not tried it, but after this conversation I'm definitely very, very curious. As an engineering nerd myself. It definitely is a really cool innovation in the outdoor industry.

Speaker 4: 1:03:26

Well, I can help you out with that. I know a guy.

Speaker 5: 1:03:30

Oh do you.

Speaker 2: 1:03:34

You know this is something that, like you said, there's so many you know skeptics out there and there's so many people, oh, like it's not. You know why am I going to, why am I going to waste my money on this when I can just go to Walmart or Dick's and pick up that $5, you know $5, $15 camo and everything like that. But you know, I think science has come so far in the last. You know, I think science has come so far in the last, like, especially, you just say, since, since COVID, let's just say since COVID. There's just so many scientific facts that can, that backs this product right here, that you can't say with a lot of other companies out there.

Speaker 2: 1:04:19

You know I'm not throwing shots on any other company or anything like that, you know, but this is the one that is you, you, you put it out in. You know I'm not throwing shots on any other company or anything like that, you know, but this is the one that is you, you put it out in. You know, for hunting, you put it out for photography, you put out in the water, you put it out. Animals use, use this, this is, this is their system to navigate, to find prey. You know it's you. You can look up any study you know, and then if you're going to sell this product, like you said, you have to do the scientific research on this product and then you have to test it. You know, and it's going through so much testing that it's like you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:50

This is something that you can't fake, because what people do, you said, is they call you out on your bullshit, regardless, if your product is not up to par, you would never hear the end of it and it would spread all over and be like oh, you know what? Those people know, that that that stuff right there, that's bs. That doesn't really work, you know, um. So like it's, um, it's, it's definitely a thing that like it. Like you know, peyton said it definitely got my, my interest where it's like um, excited. I think we've had so many people on now right in the last couple of guests that we've had on with you know, just products and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 1:05:32

They're just really innovated and I might be broke by the end of our our recording sessions this this year going into the next season, like a lot of the guests that we've had on, and you know the big reason we just don't want I'm not saying we don't want anyone on because I want everyone to get their opera opportunity to um speak and to promote, but you know a lot of the people I've personally talked to and discussed. It's because these are all products that I have now thought about going into the new season. Like it's that time of the year where it's like these things are coming to your mind what do I need to do to make myself a better hunter? What is going to maybe give me that tiny edge? What sites do I need? Do I need to change my bow? Do I need different these? This is one of the things, especially when I found out the difference, especially when it comes to birds.

Speaker 2: 1:06:26

That was and I'm a new, new, uh, new waterfowl hunter, new turkey hunter. I've been, you know, waterfowl hunting for the last two or three years, but I'm obsessed with it now. I've now gotten especially this like this, this new passion for Turkey. We went out scouting the other day and like just seeing the sign and setting up now cameras specifically for Turkey, which I've never did in my life. I want every opportunity that I can opening day, opening week to shoot my first Turkey. I, I, you know and if this is going to give me that little bit of extra nudge that I've missed this last couple of years not getting a turkey, you best believe I wanted to get you on, but then now clarifying everything you best believe you know I'm going to have to.

Speaker 2: 1:07:10

You know, get, get myself some and really test it out, because I'm pretty excited for it.

Speaker 4: 1:07:15

Yeah, no, it'll make a difference for you. It really will. Um, you know I can't get the birds in front of you. That's still the hardest part of your account is getting in front of you.

Speaker 1: 1:07:22

You know, call, getting them called in and all that I mean that's a whole, nother art form in itself.

Speaker 2: 1:07:27

You know um, but when the bird coming out with me when the bird gets in front of you.

Speaker 4: 1:07:33

Um, you know, if you're bow hunting, if the bird gets in front of you and you don't need a blind, you're gonna be all get to fold them. You know, that's what I'll tell you. Um, and and I don't really get arguments at all with that um, you know we've been around since 2010 as a company and this, the research, actually started way back in, really honestly, in 2006, 2007, um, so you know it's, it's been around long enough. There's not a lot of gimmicks that stay around that long. Number one and, uh, they said, like we do a lot of social media marketing now and we get some people on there, that a lot of people actually get on there. Oh, this doesn't work and it's all that. But 99 of them have never tried it and they don't understand it and they haven't taken the 15 minutes it takes to fully understand what we do. You know, you understand it, it's going to make sense to you and once you use it, it's going to blow you away really well.

Speaker 1: 1:08:22

Yeah, no, it definitely does, Because I've just been listening very intensely and I mean I would just run in all these scenarios for when I was hunting and these animals should have had no clue, I was even there and now it makes so much sense, just just remembering their body language, what they were doing like totally opened my eyes, like 100 yeah, yeah, if you pay attention to body language, it's pretty easy to see when they, when they know something's up, yeah, give me a little.

Speaker 5: 1:08:52

Yeah, give me a couple excuses for some situations I've blown. Probably had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 4: 1:09:03

It wasn't your fault, right? Unfortunately, I still make mistakes all the time and you know I don't always work. You're bow hunting, or literally trying to shoot someone with a stick. So you know it's, it's a, and if it ever quits being a challenge, it'll quit being any fun.

Speaker 5: 1:09:19

so that's true, that's the truth. You know it's fun because it's hard yeah yeah, that's.

Speaker 2: 1:09:25

That's, yeah, um pete.

Speaker 5: 1:09:27

I know you got a few more, few more questions um, I think, yeah, I think I checked a lot of my boxes. Um, you know just kind of how you got to it. You know how you, how you came to that conclusion, how you discovered it and how you proved it out as an engineer. That's super interesting to me and you know the science. You know it's not a hard parallel to draw, like with the shark week thing, and it's like everybody knows that sharks have the electric field. You know why. You know, and, like you, you said they have an organ. It's a long name, I forget what it's called, but you know it. You know, just doing some research and looking up the things you're saying, I mean there's, you know, scientific studies that back up you know the uh the other thing too.

Speaker 4: 1:10:08

You know, um, if you look at the four, the four basic elements of the universe, electromagnetism is one, so is gravity. There's two that are kind of dark matter stuff that I can't even understand myself, but but electromagnetism is one of the one of the basic things that basically everything in the universe is made of. And to come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter to an animal, I mean really. I mean, evolution is a pretty and nature's a pretty amazing thing. If one of the most basic elements in the universe is being, you know is, is there chances are the animals are using it to their benefit?

Speaker 2: 1:10:46

you know, yep, so I agree, yeah, it, it's something that we learned. What I one of the first things I remember learning in science is you know about how our, our world is kind of made up and you know there's just electric fields, just like it's, like you said, electric field, gravity, those are the two. Like, going back now when I was what I don't know second grade, maybe maybe third grade, maybe even before that like those are the first two things, that that you that you really learned, and how animals use them on a daily basis, but and just our body, to like if, if we were doctors right now, you know, I imagine in and you know my fiance's sister, she's in medical school like you learn a lot about this, because this is, this is something that humans run off of and can help save lives. You know, you just look at, you know what, what you can do, and you know just electric shocking the heart and everything like that to to get it back going, and everything like that. You know.

Speaker 2: 1:11:50

So it's, it's an absolute wonder where now we're look, you're looking at hunting in a different way too as well, because you know, like Peyton said, now and're look, you're looking at hunting in a different way too as well, because you know, like Peyton said now and and Frank, you're, you're replaying things, but it's like if you guys would have never have, you know, found this or we would never have talked to you, like it's, it's something that okay, like we would have just never have made this connection and help change not make everything a hundred percent, and we need to to really clarify that because we don't want someone going and thinking that, oh my God, like you had, like that guy came up and told you you drove the car on, you know, on the thing and why, why the deer run away.

Speaker 2: 1:12:31

But it's like if, if it gives anyone out there a little bit of help, and maybe someone who's new to getting into hunting this right here may help them not, you know, spend money somewhere else and things that are not going to work, maybe it's going to help you get attached to hunting, because now you get to have these in-close experiences with all these different animals that you've you may have not, you know achieved before. We all look at back the first time that you know a few times that we went hunting, and all the mistakes and you know it's, you wish you were so close to an animal and you you wish you saw deer or whatever the case, and it's like all right. Maybe like this can help get me to to be an absolute lunatic when it comes to hunting and absolutely obsessed with what we do.

Speaker 4: 1:13:21

Well, let's say it's going to help you with one thing that every hunter has seen you talk to. The old time hunters now say deer, have a sixth sense. Guess what they do.

Speaker 2: 1:13:30

And this is exactly the sixth. Yeah, it is the sixth sense.

Speaker 4: 1:13:33

There's no doubt about it, and so you know. Like I said, it's one of those things. It's just a tool. You're not invisible, um, so I gotta help you in every situation, but it'll. It'll help you often enough that you won't want to help that once you start it would suck if we're invisible too.

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

That wouldn't really be much fun. Like it, I really wanted, like sometimes, like I'm, like I wish I was the best hunter in the world and like I could just go out every time be successful. But I think my failures kind of make me the drive just so much more. And just like yeah, because when you do finally capitalize and it's like, oh my god, like you, you just want to scream. Some people do scream. Listen, I've seen some people throw up because of the adrenaline rush and everything like that. Cry like it makes it so worth it. It's like you, you. This is something that I don't think you could be a hundred percent on. You can't be a hundred percent on hunting like there's always going to be, especially bow hunting. You can't be a hundred percent on on bow hunting yeah, it's just one of those things.

Speaker 4: 1:14:33

If you're uh, um, you know that's what makes it special. You know that adrenaline charge and honestly, I think you know I've been hunting long enough that's one of the reasons that I'm starting to chase this dangerous stuff, because it gives me that little extra adrenaline that I used to get when I was younger. You know, I don't get quite as much, as I still enjoy hunting and I still love every second of it. And you know, every time I get a close encounter or shoot an animal or get miss one or whatever, it's always special. But you know, it's that adrenaline rush, that don't that. You know why am I? Why am I? All of a sudden I got cold and I'm shaking and it's, you know. You know 80 degrees outside and doesn't make any sense. Well, that's your adrenaline, don't? And there's nothing like it.

Speaker 2: 1:15:16

There's nothing like it. No, no, definitely not. Um, steve I, I know you missed a little bit. I imagine you're you're with uh putting down the kiddos for bed. Um, any any questions you want to ask before we get into our last segment?

Speaker 3: 1:15:28

uh, unfortunately I I don't know some of the things you covered, but I did have one thing that I was curious about a lot of the guys that I see that are using the hex, they're doing a lot of stalking and they're on the ground and that's probably I would. I would imagine that's probably where it's at its at its best.

Speaker 4: 1:15:49

It's one of the places, certainly, certainly, I mean, cause hex is going to help you to get away with more movement. And so you know, in a stocking situation that you know I mean you're not stocking if you're not moving, so so it does it, but it's a benefit, no matter where you're going to use it, it's just a matter of you know when you get in close, you know, the more that you can do to keep that animal from knowing that you're there, the more advantage you're going to have, and so, but some of the stuff we do with stocking is just crazy.

Speaker 4: 1:16:17

Some of it, I mean, and not always, um, stocking is an art form on its own and you know, just just making too much noise will get you busted. Stocking, you know, or you know anything like that. So, um, but you know, like I said, we've seen some big differences. You know, a lot of times it's not something that's 100 that you're going to just walk up to anything you see, by any means, but, um, but it's a, it's an advantage.

Speaker 3: 1:16:39

Like I said, once you see it, it's hard to deny it yeah, and I know a lot of guys right now they're moving towards, uh, saddle hunters and, and you know, even hang on tree stands they're, they're flirting with being lower to the ground, you know, four to ten feet off the ground, and I'm almost. I've been thinking about how, with hex and what it's capable of achieving that combination, elevated but not in an area where deer are most likely looking, you know more, in the tree itself. With the hex combination, the product just has to be an absolute insane combination. Well, it's like I said, I I'm I've hunted in tree stands a lot.

Speaker 4: 1:17:15

I don't really like hunting in tree stands because I'm I've hunted in tree stands a lot. I don't really like hunting in tree stands because I'm a big guy and I make a big dent when I fall out. So, um, so you know I I prefer to hunt on the ground personally and, um, you know I I still get in a tree stand once a while. But, like I mean this, last december I shot a nice buck out in ohio and and, uh, on a buddy's place, uh, who had really nice elevated blinds and all that, and I just sat in the brush on the side and was still able to shoot a nice buck that had about I don't know, he was about 20 yards.

Speaker 4: 1:17:45

I had a little buck at about 10 actually facing me, and I was just sitting in a chair alongside, just kind of brushed in on the side, not even really, I mean, there's nothing between us and the deer. I drew the bow. The little buck actually did pick up a little bit of movement and it kind of boogered a little bit, but the buck that I shot was looking the other way when I when the arrow hit him at 25 yards. So, um, you know, he still saw the movement, but again, he didn't see it as anything that he needed to be crazy alarmed about. You know, I mean they'll jump when a bird flies by too, you, you know kind of thing. So you know, I think it made a lot of difference in that situation, you know.

Speaker 4: 1:18:22

So, yeah, I mean it just enables you to have more options. You know, if you want to hunt lower, you're going to have an option to do that a little more effectively.

Speaker 3: 1:18:30

Do you think that more guys are turning towards still hunting and stalking because of this tool?

Speaker 4: 1:18:36

I know a lot of people that I know a lot of people that do. Um, you know, especially out here in the west, I mean, we do a lot more stalking than than you guys do back east, for sure. Um, and you know that's kind of where this whole thing was born. You know, the spot and stock is, uh, especially with mule deer and things like that, that's mostly what you do to kill them. So, um, so yeah, I think it is, and it's certainly like I said, it's just allowing more options. Um, you know, if you're in a situation where you don't have any any other options, try walking at them, because you're going to get away with it a lot more often than you think you know.

Speaker 2: 1:19:10

So yeah, that's pretty unique. Um, two more before we get to our last rapid questions. One that just came when you guys were starting out and you know what was the one animal like. Was there a specific animal that it just took so much longer to figure out, like you just, is there one that got you stuck a little bit?

Speaker 4: 1:19:33

You know, I mean it's like I said when I was in my skeptic phase, which is about a couple of years long. You know, I mean it's like I said when I was in my skeptic phase, which is about a couple of years long. You know that. You know, because you don't, you don't necessarily see a giant benefit unless things are close and the situation's right, and having that right situation is difficult to get sometimes. So you know, again, I use it on elk probably more than just about anything else. So you know, again, I use it on elk probably more than just about anything else. And there was still times when you know it's like gosh, I don't know, they, they, they boogered about something. You know, but you know.

Speaker 4: 1:20:14

But you know it could have been my scent as well, it could have been a lot of other things, and so you know, you kind of kind of go by that. But you know, what you end up doing is is up doing is having for me literally hundreds and hundreds of experiences. I've had a lot of them before too, and the difference is pretty easy to notice when you start doing that. The one that sold me on it more than anything was turkeys by far. I mean because turkeys. It's crazy what you can do with turkeys. That's the one that solidified it for sure with me was that.

Speaker 4: 1:20:41

Some of the other ones made me a little more difficult to see it every time. But with turkeys I mean literally now, when we call in turkeys and we're not going to shoot, we routinely just do this out and you can get away with it all day long just wave at them. So yeah, it's like I said.

Speaker 2: 1:20:57

it's like I said, it's just nuts turkey season right right on the uh, right, there right it is definitely right there and then so we, we always do these, these rapid questions. Um, and usually the first and most popular question of I don't even remember where I put my pen right now is you know, if you had two weeks anywhere, what would you be your? What is your dream hunt? But you've done so many hunts but I do have to. You talked about moose hunting and you shot a moose. I shot three moose, sorry is, would an Alaskan bull moose be your dream or would it be the hippopotamus?

Speaker 4: 1:21:40

to be honest with you, my, my dream hunt would be to hunt, um, you know, probably the hickory in in arizona for elk. Honestly, um again.

Speaker 4: 1:21:50

I'm an elk addict and if I had to pick one animal to hunt the rest of my life, it would be elk guaranteed not even a close second. And I love moose. Moose are cool when they're rutting. Moose are extremely difficult to get with a bow if they're not rutting. But if I were, if I were going to pick a place, it would be, you know, the Hickory or the San Carlos or one of the one of the you know places in Arizona, that's, that's running those. You know, those 450 inch bowls. It'd be pretty hard to pass that up. So, um, and one of these days maybe I'll get to do it. I my, my checkbook isn't, uh, I, I still have an affinity to writing big checks for things like that. But you know, it's maybe one of these days we'll do it, because they are big checks. You got to put a lot of zeros on those yep, that's for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:22:34

Um, are you a snack? Do you do you? Are you a snack guy while you're hunting? One of the other questions is you know what? What's your go-to hunting snacker? Are you a snacker?

Speaker 4: 1:22:46

Oh yeah, I mean I've I've been had that addiction pretty much my whole life. You know, nowadays I try to stay with, you know, a jerky or something that's got a lot of protein in it. You know, I've struggled with my weight my whole life too. That's one of my dirty little secrets, I guess. But so, and I have kind of made some pretty big inroads on that here in the last few years, so, but yeah, I used to be the cookies and chips and all that stuff, but now it's most time it'll be a jerky or something like that.

Speaker 2: 1:23:16

Yeah, um, you know, if you could buy land in other, in any state, what? What state would it be to hunt?

Speaker 4: 1:23:23

boy. Uh, that's a good one. I mean wyoming comes to mind pretty quick because of the, the wide variety of game that maybe montana too. Um, you know they have a wide variety of game and they manage them pretty well. Um, you know, I far the farther away from wolves I could get right now it'd be make me happy, but that's kind of getting tough, um, but being a western guy, it would probably be one of those, I guess, um you know have you?

Speaker 2: 1:23:50

have you shot, have you gone after wolves? Yet is it evenly? Because I know there's a whole bunch of laws on on hunting wolves and everything like that, so I know it gets. We had, um, you know, quentin from full, full draw pursuit on and he was talking about it.

Speaker 2: 1:24:05

What, frank, you remember where he, where he lives, wisconsin no no, I think it is Wisconsin yeah, I'm pretty sure, and he was saying that you know they, they can't, they can't hunt the wolves, but it's having such an effect on the, the animal populations and everything like that. Like, is that something that's your face with over there?

Speaker 4: 1:24:27

yeah, I mean we can't hunt them here either. Um, I mean, if they're doing like active depredation in some parts of oregon that the ranchers can can take them out, but they've got to be able to prove all that stuff. So it's pretty, you know, and part of our state. They're still federally listed, as you know, endangered, which is a joke. But yeah, I mean there's very few places Now. There's places in Idaho and Montana, wyoming, that they home, and I mean that would be a great trophy with a bow and I hope someday that we'll be able to do that. And I always buy a wolf tag when I do on Idaho, which I do almost every year. I just haven't had the opportunity to shoot one with my bow yet. So I could have shot several with rifles, but with my bow it hasn't materialized yet.

Speaker 2: 1:25:23

But seeing a lighted noggo through a wolf would be a thrill really would. Definitely. Um, and then one more on that fact too, like just talking about predators like that, and I know you're that you, you like hunting big game any. Have you gone after mountain lion at all with the bow?

Speaker 4: 1:25:29

um, that's one that one of the few animals in oregon that I haven't. Also, I haven't had an opportunity to take one. I I could have if I wanted to do it with dogs, and I just haven't. My daughter actually ran hounds for a long time, but she can't chase mountain lions in Oregon with the dogs. They've outlawed that too.

Speaker 4: 1:25:45

So you know you'd have to go to Idaho or Wyoming or New Mexico or someplace like that. Would they still allow it Someday? I will, I'm sure. I keep hoping that one of these days that one's going to sneak into my elk call and just shoot him that way that'd be, that'd be the cool way to do it, because we have an abundance of mountain lions. They're not, they're not rare or anything else. I mean they're just. They're so secretive. You just don't see them that much because they're a night out. You know they're a night predator. So but they're here.

Speaker 4: 1:26:12

We see tracks all the time. Matter of fact, I was out looking at a piece of property yesterday and we saw a big, big mountain land track that would been through that night before.

Speaker 2: 1:26:18

So um, and then a last one, for for me, um, you know, and one of my favorite ones to ask you know if you could hunt with anyone you know, um, doesn't matter family member, it could be, someone, famous, it could, they could be dead, they could be alive. Who, who? Who would you hunt with If you can bring back for one hunt? Hunt with one person one time. Who, who would it be?

Speaker 4: 1:26:42

That's a good question. I mean, you know, as a, as a bow and arrow historian, I'd almost say Fred Bear or or Saxon Pope or somebody like that. But honestly, um, and this guy, like I said, I've already mentioned him once but Randy Elmer is my absolute hero and I'm fortunate enough to know him personally and I've never actually got to share a hunt with him. We used to shoot together. We did the ESPN Grand Outdoor Games back when they were going on and Randy was a part of that and we enjoyed shooting together a lot in those and I was fortunate. But you know, randy, randy's just such a number one, a true gentleman, just a wealth of knowledge and uh, yeah, I mean you just I think I'd probably be the guy. Honestly, you know more than anybody else. I mean you can probably learn more from those guys that are long past, but uh, I don't know, randy's got a lot, a lot to offer. So probably Randy.

Speaker 2: 1:27:35

Love it, love it, um, to offer. So, probably, randy, love it, love it. Guys, any any more questions from you guys? I know we covered a lot. I mean this was a phenomenal episode.

Speaker 2: 1:27:45

I mean I am very happy with just how much information for us to you know that we were able to gain. And you know something that I know Steve really wanted is like hey, you know something that, um, I know steve really wanted. He's like, hey, you know what you should, you should look at. You know getting, uh, getting mike on and talking about this, and you know getting, you know the actual input from you know the guy, the guy, then the man himself, and you know, uh, you know. So, really, first of all, great, great call, you know, and it was, yeah, I don't think it could have gone better. I think I think our listeners are really going to to find this one really interesting and you know we will definitely be. I mean I can speak for you know myself and probably pay and sincerity said it will. We'll definitely be putting in an order and we'll be putting this stuff to good use and I imagine the the rest of the guys will as well. But boys, any more questions?

Speaker 5: 1:28:36

I had one quick question, go ahead, oh sorry no, I was just saying no, no, no questions for me, go ahead, steve.

Speaker 3: 1:28:41

Sorry yeah, that's okay. I did have one question, mike, I know, I don't know, it's funny. I was at the graded outdoors show and I walked right past your booth and I just my dad and I were, we saw you on the way out. I just I saw for two seconds. I didn't even get to handle it. But the material itself, it doesn't seem like it's very clingy. So how is it, if you, are you able to wear that underneath other camo gear? And it is not? Do you have any plans to make more of a base layer skin type type?

Speaker 4: 1:29:15

So that's a great question and didn't cover and it's very important. So it's important to know that hex works under other camo or on top. It doesn't have to be on the outside. So as long as that grids between you and the outside, it's going to work. We have three fabrics. We have our lightweight fabric, which is basically it, just it just holds the technology. It's not going to keep you warm or anything. Matter of fact, it's super lightweight, super breathable. Most people are going to wear that underneath.

Speaker 4: 1:29:39

Um, that was our original suit that we brought out. That was we tried to make it usable for any hunting situation. So the pants are cut like a sweat pan. In those it's like a long sleeve t-shirt and a head cover. Um, we do make a base layer. Um, our base layer fabric is actually, um, it's a polyester and it's got some lycra and some other things in that. So I would put that one up against a, an under armor or a or a kuya or a sitka base layer all day long for wicking moisture and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4: 1:30:08

Um, but it's got hex in it as well and that one just like a long john on the pant. The shirt is a core zip hemline, so it's not quite as tight fitting, but it's still a fairly snug fit, um. And then, of course, our outerwear is our hooded shirt with an integrated face mask, which is right now our most popular, just because that face mask is always there. It's a nice hoodie, right, and it's made to be wore on the outside. However, you could throw a coat over it if it was, if you needed more insulation. And then we have another fabric that we use in our pant products too, so we have an outer layer of pant. It's just a really nice pant.

Speaker 4: 1:30:43

We have that in our two hex camo patterns and we also have that in a brown. So, matter of fact, I'm overstocked on the brown pants right now, so I've actually got those at a pretty good discount right now. So if anybody wants a really nice pair of pants they're styled after the cool brand kuhl out of salt lake um, we felt like that was the best fitting pant in on the market, so we really kind of styled them. After those articulated knees, um, you know, they've got uh pockets, uh in the legs and that kind of thing. Super nice pant, absolutely silent, fairly lightweight, um. So if it's super cold, you're probably gonna still want to put a base or something under, but it has hex in it and you know that's. We just kind of tried to target with our product line to make sure that people had you know something that would they were going to be comfortable in for their style. So and you can mix and match among any of those if you wanted to too. That's also an option on the website.

Speaker 3: 1:31:35

So Nice. My, my last follow-up question to that is especially there are early season hunts here in Jersey or anywhere in the South where you're still grappling with 90 plus degree weather. In that early season, using this clothing there, any reaction heat wise with your body heat interacting with the uh, this material? Where, um, there's any mitigation or does that affect it at all?

Speaker 4: 1:32:04

Well, so, um, so, the lightweight system is probably the best one. If you're if you're dealing with hot, I mean if you're dealing with hot that lightweight system, literally, I mean, like, if I'm hunting antelope or hunting where it's hot, a lot of times I'll just wear a pair of shorts underneath and that's it right? Um, it's, it's. It's really thin, though, so it's super breathable in that so that's going to mitigate your heat.

Speaker 4: 1:32:25

Now one interesting thing if, if you're a person that has a very high electrical output, which some people do on our meter that I was discussing, I mean, I've seen it go as high as 500. Most people are somewhere around between 70 and 100 kind of average. But but as far as if you have a high energy field, what you're what you might find is that it starts to feel warm after a while, after quite a while, I mean, like we're talking hours but it starts to feel warm and what that's telling you is that that grid is actually, if you're not touching ground, that grid is actually filling up a little bit and the byproduct of that is going to be heat, so it's going to make it feel warmer. The way to fix that is just touch any grounded object and you'll drain that away instantly.

Speaker 4: 1:33:11

So if you're on the ground or whatever, you're never going to have that problem. If you're sitting and so the fabric's not touching any grounded object for extended time, that could happen. But yeah, most people never have that problem.

Speaker 3: 1:33:23

It's only for those people that have a naturally high electrical output so you're saying we should run some filament down to the ground with a ground spike if we're in a tree and just touched it every once in a while?

Speaker 4: 1:33:34

you don't you don't have to do that, for, like I, said, unless you have an extremely high field, you'll never feel that heat, uh. But but if you do, I mean if it starts to feel hot on you, that is a sign that you know. Especially if you're like in a tree, not touching the ground, that kind of thing um, that is a sign that that is starting to build up on you a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:33:50

So okay, good to know yep, um and our I know it's early, any chance you, you know you're gonna be are you guys usually at the great american outdoor show? You're gonna go back? Yeah, we've been doing, absolutely yeah no, we've been doing that.

Speaker 4: 1:34:05

I think I think this is our third or fourth year. Uh, this year at that. It was very difficult to get in. We're on the waiting list forever, and then they finally opened up a little more room and a lot, and we're in there now.

Speaker 4: 1:34:15

But um, yeah, we have a, we have a big booth there. That's we. You know we do a a pretty big presentation there. We have a 30-foot booth with meters and all the products and you know we have. We have, uh guests come in and things like that too. So, yeah, no, grand door show is uh one of our biggest. Well, it is the biggest show of the year by a lot actually, so yeah, it's our, it's.

Speaker 2: 1:34:37

Listen, I go every year. We spend. My fiance wants to spend more and more time there every year. She books us for four or five days. So I'm really excited to meet you in person as well. You know, I know we have a whole, we have a whole year, basically a whole year and everything like that till then. But you know, even more reason to be excited to head to the show and you know I really want to see you know the meter work for for you know, in person and kind of get a read on on all of us. Just uh, you know, I don't think I, you know I'm not really. You know I imagine I'm in the norm, but like it's just cool to just seeing how the product really works, also in person when you get to you know, test, see it tested out and everything like that too in person yeah, it's.

Speaker 4: 1:35:20

It's interesting to to see what we all put out, because we're all a little bit different. The military actually tells us that they have a device that can read your bioelectric signature at 40 meters. That's unclassified. So you imagine what they have that is classified. Um, they also tell us that it's that it's like a fingerprint, so everybody's field is different enough that they can actually use it to tell who you are at 40 meters.

Speaker 2: 1:35:41

So a little freaky, I think that's what the operators use, you know, usually, especially after they you know they're, you know caught somebody or whatever I do know they do take a fingerprint and it gives them, like this whole background of data and everything like that. So I wonder if that's one of the things that they're using right there. That's yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:36:05

I wonder what is classified.

Speaker 4: 1:36:06

It could be it could be, but what I can tell you is that the military doesn't tell you very much of anything about what they're using their stuff for so it kind of makes you wonder. I mean, maybe they're using it for something else. Who knows Mike?

Speaker 2: 1:36:15

So it kind of makes you wonder. I mean, maybe they're using it for something else, who knows? Yeah, mike, we want to thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it. Like I said, this was an absolute amazing episode and you know, I'm kind of speechless at the end of this. My mind is kind of like blown away a little bit.

Speaker 4: 1:36:37

So, guys, I'll let you any anything you guys want to say leading off well, I I want to say I mean, I appreciate you guys having me on. It's been a fun talk, um. You know, anytime we can talk about bow hunting, it's a good day. Um, and, like I said, I've been absolutely blessed. I don't know why I was chosen to take this path, but I'm sure enjoying the ride a lot, I can tell you. And after doing this, actually it's hard to say this, but I've actually been bowhunting for 50 years. So, yeah, it's fun to share all that stuff and younger guys coming up and being able to share a little bit of the old days and what it used to be like. It's a lot different is now so, uh, but anyway, no, thank you guys for having me on.

Speaker 2: 1:37:21

I really enjoyed it. Of course, mike, we're definitely gonna have to get you back on it at some point. I mean, I imagine there's so many more stories. Have you one more before we're about to go? Just have you done a red stag yet or any interest in okay? So, yep, so we're gonna, we're gonna. I imagine there's more stories that we got to get into and everything like that we really want to dive deeper into. You know all the bow hunting stories that that you have. So, uh, you know there there's a bunch of them. There will be a part two, everybody.

Speaker 4: 1:37:50

So, all right, well, cool I'd love to be back and, like I said, one of the other things that we've been doing is capturing a lot of this on video. So, again, you know, if somebody wants to, all of our show episodes are on our YouTube channel, which is Hex Stealth Screen on YouTube, and you know, you can see shorts, you can watch full episodes, you can watch a lot of the most of our. We don't have all the very first ones, but most of our episodes are there and we're working on getting even all the old ones up there. So, um, so, there's a lot of a lot of video chronicling along. In that one of these days, when I'm really old and I'm too old to hunt, that's probably what I'm going to do Sit around and reminisce on a video screen.

Speaker 2: 1:38:30

Yeah, no, um, you know, thank you guys for for for tuning in in. I hope you guys enjoy this episode. All the description going to be down in the link below make sure you go check out. Hex, it is an absolute amazing product. We are cannot wait to get our hands on on on some of these uh products and give them a big test during during turkey season. Um, hopefully we'll be. We'll come back with, you know, a turkey down for my first Turkey down and the boys with a bunch of turkeys. But, like I said, hope you guys enjoy this episode and we'll see you guys next time.