Speaker 2: 0:20

before? Did you get pain? Did you do the survey, mike? Did you get the survey from new jersey fish and wildlife?

Speaker 1: 0:27

I gotta do it. Bass sent it, but I haven't done it yet I saw a survey.

Speaker 3: 0:31

I feel like it was a different state, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 0:34

I thought I'd have to look for the jersey one I still got a mail, my maryland it was, um, it was actually pretty like I've done them before, but this one was pretty detailed like. This one was like they're asking a lot of good questions and I was actually like now I was putting my input in. But how much like are people really like? Are they going to really focus? No, because the state that once you're gone, you know and you know my thing is like I'm not a fan of putting into seven bucks, like no, I don't want to do that. I'm not a fan of you know, um, the earn a buck and I'm not a fan of having unlimited does like. To me, those are not it's, it's not the greatest thing. But to them, or to the uh, what is it? The um?

Speaker 2: 1:18

insurance companies yeah they, they want to, they want all that.

Speaker 3: 1:23

You know what I mean yeah, I mean where I live. There's freaking deer everywhere, like I'll see a deer in my yard and two days later I'll see it dead on cokesbury road like uh yeah, well, where, where you, where you are there?

Speaker 2: 1:41

yeah, there's a lot, but that's the thing. Like it's very you have to take it by region by region or land by land, and that's the one thing that they don't do. And I think that's like where, where I hunt? You know that's that's starting to hurt because you're comparing it to other spots in the zone, but it's you can't because you're you're wiping out the, you know, the deer population and I feel we're still on the men from EHG. Yeah, still not fully clear, but yeah, no, I hear you.

Speaker 3: 2:12

And like where I live now there's a ton of deer and I'm part of a deer management program Literally that's what it's called and I'm two years into it. But I'm like all right, and even just having met some of the neighbors that border the properties that I'm hunting here, they're just like shoot as many as you want, like they. They look at them like vermin and so you know it's a double-edged sword. Like obviously deer hunting is fun and like I consider myself a big game hunter, a deer hunter and elk hunter for whatever reason. Like bird hunting doesn't do it for me Granted, I've never done it but like left to my own devices is what I gravitate to. So from that perspective, there's so much opportunity If you just love this sport. That being said, like you know, I met one guy who's like, oh yeah, I shot. He's literally like I shot six bucks last year, like yeah, I think that's too much.

Speaker 2: 3:10

You know like six like it's a lot.

Speaker 3: 3:13

It's like a couple eights, some sixes like how many does?

Speaker 1: 3:17

did he shoot? Probably least as many oh yeah, okay, I was gonna say like if you shot six bucks and you should didn't shoot any does, but then this year, this year, like, I just met this dude's, a random guy.

Speaker 3: 3:28

I met him and then he's like, yeah, this year I haven't seen anything. I'm like, well, dude, you know, I wonder why he cleared it out last year a little bit. So I mean, I'm not one for, like I don't know. I think if you want to shoot a deer and you know it's legal, you know, have fun. But at the same time, like and everybody's different, like there's some level of responsibility, right, like I. I haven't been, I haven't seen a lot of big deer in the areas where I've been hunting. But you know what? I want to get one down. So last two years I shot a six. Those were were my two bucks Right. This year I went out with the gun too and I shot two more in a different place. So I don't know, it's, it's fun and if you're in the right places in New Jersey, there's a shit ton of opportunity to do it and get better at it. That's kind of how I look at it now.

Speaker 3: 4:26

There's a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 2: 4:27

Let's get this thing going, because we're about to get into a whole like. Well, I thought we were going.

Speaker 3: 4:32

Oh yeah, you know what we're going to do.

Speaker 2: 4:34

No, because I can just take that and put that. Let me just start officially start the podcast Okay. Usually we do an intro, but cool, it does happen, not. Sometimes we just start talking and then we just we just get going. Welcome back to the garden state outdoors and podcast presented by boondock signing. I'm your host, mike nitray I'm peyton smith and today, guys, we got it.

Speaker 2: 4:57

we got a special one for you. Peyton was a was a big key part to. He was like, listen, you got to get mike on, you got to get Mike on, you gotta get Mike on. And you know, I've I always go through my list every year of like new people I want to go on. You were, you were definitely up there in the top, but Peyton was really persistent. I was like all right, yeah, I think Peyton sent out a, a feeler, and then he was like yeah, yeah, mike's, mike's down for it. And I was like all right, like let's do it. And you know, welcome to the show, mike Zussman. Correct, that's how you say your last name.

Speaker 3: 5:28

Yep, mike Zussman, and no, thank you, mike. Thank you, peyton. Yeah, I kind of like I love hate doing this shit, but podcast, digital media, it's the future. You got to get good at it, right digital media.

Speaker 2: 5:47

It's the future. You got to get good at it, right? So, yeah, that's the same, yes, it's. When I was first starting out, it was like, oh, I kind of hate going in front of the camera and like it's just, it's just awkward. But now this is just like it's like okay, we're going in front of the camera, like I could talk for days, like it doesn't matter, it could be the most random person in the world, like it's all right. All right, we're here, we're filming, like it's it's just become so natural. But this is where yeah, this is where our world has just gone. Like it's podcasts have blown up really, I'd say since coven and that's when we started ours. Like everyone started just jumping on that, that bandwagon and you know it's just taken off. But so much great information, uh, from it as well.

Speaker 3: 6:23

Yeah, yeah it is, and that's kind of like part of my career. Like I had like a kind of normal job, like I was running a company but we didn't do any digital marketing or any social media and then sold that business, got out of it and I kind of I don't have a lot of regrets, but I do regret not going down this path when I had the business from a marketing perspective because, like, this stuff is so powerful and now it's like you can just kind of be your authentic self, like oh yeah, I'm a hunter, I'm an outdoorsman, I happen to be in cybersecurity or engineering or whatever it is, and I think it's just a great way to like network and meet cool people. Um, that we didn't have a long time ago. And then, when you do it right, you can use it to grow a business or a brand like you guys are doing.

Speaker 2: 7:12

So it's cool stuff, definitely, definitely agree. Um, you know, and give the you know our listeners. You know, a quick backstory on yourself. How'd you get into the outdoors? You know where did it all start? The, the fishing, like you do a lot and you do a lot of traveling for it as well too. So, like, where did this all come from? Where'd the passion start?

Speaker 3: 7:31

I mean, I probably have to give credit to my dad, who just recently passed away, but he, he grew up in Brooklyn, close to the sea, and he was all about the ocean and the sea, as he would say. So he grew up on the beach, he grew up saltwater fishing. He's a big sailor. But my parents settled in northern New Jersey and yeah, I don't know Like actually I have these books. These books were just always in my house. I'm going to grab them. I pulled them out of the house because we were cleaning out the house.

Speaker 3: 8:04

Um, game bird hunting, how to call wildlife hunting dogs these are, these are outdoor life books and there was one on big game hunting too and we didn't do any of that stuff. But those books were there and I think that kind of planted the seed, like I'm talking. When I was like three or four of these books were in the house. But he would take me fishing. We'd go saltwater fishing in Long Island Sound, do a lot of trout fishing and lake fishing up in North Jersey. But I remember being a little kid and driving to his uncle's farm in upstate New York. We're driving up the thruway and I was just glued to the window like looking for deer, like that was my favorite thing in the world to go on long road trips and just look out the window for deer. So I, I don't know where that came from like 100 yep still

Speaker 2: 8:55

you'll be careful not to crash now when I do, oh my god, oh yeah, I'll be with bianca and I'm like, and I'm driving and I'm like, oh oh, there goes a deer right there, oh, there's a deer there. She's like how do you do it? I go I've been doing this since I was a little kid Like it, just so natural, just when you're driving, you're just looking for deer. You're looking for, like, any type of like wildlife, like bears and turkeys and whatever you could possibly see, like when we used to go to. When we go to maine, like we're we're, we're moose watching. The second we cross over, like we're, once we get to a certain area, it's like, all right, it's moose watching. Time you're more focused, honestly, of checking every little clearing and every little like you know area that you could see and you, even if you have to slow down, like that, that's, that's what you're doing yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:43

Now it's the same way and so I never. I never went hunting as a kid and then I I got into. I I've always fished, like all different kinds of fishing uh, trout fishing, saltwater fishing, probably one of my favorite uh, you know ways to fish. Just go like inshore for stripers, like that's. If I could do that every day for the rest of my life I'd probably be happy, and I might not even hunt, I don't know but um hard to beat.

Speaker 1: 10:09

That is a lot of fun yeah, I'm doing the same thing, yeah and uh.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Then the bays behind ocean city, maryland, and, and in the bay and I there's something else that I just like it more about it being inshore on that light tackle, you know throwing artificials for them. I know you're a big fly fisherman so you know that also adds another element to it. But that's a great fish, very temperamental fish and somewhat seasonal, um, you know. But growing up as a bass fisherman, like largemouth, smallmouth, like it, really it's like that, all just on a jumbo scale, which is, which is awesome, pull a little more, it tastes a a little better yep, yep, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 10:45

I like being in a boat in the surf like, like right on the edge, like bait comes in things, you know, everything just starts exploding like, and especially when it's cold, like that's probably my perfect day, like november, early december, nice and cold and gray and just catching pigs, drivers like. Anyway, um, in high school I got into mountain biking and that I'm kind of an all or nothing dude, and so when I got into high school, mountain biking now I'm in the woods for mountain biking and we're in northern new jersey, like Ringwood State Park area that's, and that's Deer Zone three. Oh man, I've spent weeks of my life mountain biking in there and it was in covid. I like practically crashed into this buck, like I was climbing up this single track like deep in ringwood state park and this thing is just like grazing right on this single track trail, like beautiful area, and I you know these are just regular mountain bikes and I guess you're just super quiet and you just come right up on the thing and it looks at you and then it runs off.

Speaker 3: 12:00

And that was early covid and I was like, all right, enough of this. I'd already bought a bow at that point and I've been covid and I was like, all right, enough of this. I had already bought a bow at that point and I've been shooting, but I'm like, I don't know, I'll probably sound like an idiot, but I'm just a bad test taker. And like forcing myself to go through the nj, like online curriculum, like that took me two tries, I'll be honest with you. I finally just forced myself to get through it and, uh, anyway, I start hunting. We can talk about that, but the thing that changed for me going back to not being able to drive, like I can't mountain bike anymore, like if I try to go for a mountain bike ride, I'm just like heads down, like looking for a sign, like looking for rubs, like it kind of ruined the sport for me a little bit.

Speaker 2: 12:43

Do you use it at all to get into any of your spots?

Speaker 3: 12:47

I was in Ringwood, but now, um, just we moved, so we moved to Hunterdon County, so now I just don't need it and it's not really not super useful for me. I will say I've toyed with the idea of um. You know like one of my spots is like like I don't know, less than half a mile from my house. I could probably use it there pretty effectively if I wanted to, but yeah, yeah, I mean it's something that, listen, I have.

Speaker 2: 13:21

I want to e-bike so badly, I really do, and not because, like one, it is quiet, but it's it's fast getting in.

Speaker 2: 13:29

Like now I can cut down on some time. It also like, man, if I could get two, three miles in without working up too much of a a crazy sweat, that that's a game changer, you know. You know, usually it's like, oh, especially on those days where it's in the rut and you're supposed to be nice and cool but it's actually hot and like you don't know how to dress and you're you're only maybe like half a mile in your walk and you're just like, oh my god, like this is, this is brutal.

Speaker 2: 13:59

I'm just sweating everywhere, like half naked and put all your clothes in yeah, I feel like it'd be a lot easier with with the e-bike and you a lot less sweating so I I agree with you.

Speaker 3: 14:11

This is like this weird intersection of sport for me, because, coming from like the mountain bike racing world, I'm kind of like you know, this is an old man, get off my lawn moment. But I'm like I hate e-bikes because now you're out like proper mountain biking and people are just like blowing by you. I hate e-bikes because now you're out like proper mountain biking and people are just like blowing by you on their e-bikes and have like little like bluetooth speakers blasting music in the woods too. So I'm just kind of an e-bike hater. So then, but I I still totally agree with you from like the practical perspective of like getting in and out quietly and not sweaty. But then it begs the question this is something I think about a lot. There are other areas in hunting where I think this applies like how much tech is too much tech?

Speaker 1: 14:54

yeah, that's starting to become a really big issue, yeah yeah, yeah, it's big in the fishing world too, you see it, with that, uh, live live scope, and I think fishing is really kind of at their crossroads, especially like the bass fishing world, um, and that's, you know, hunting's probably not far behind, but I think fishing bass fishing in general is like really at its apex of this conversation, where it's really come to a head, because like 10 years ago it was like side imaging and everyone's like all right, this is, this is really cool.

Speaker 1: 15:25

I mean, because when I started it was like it was like 100 hertz, was like a good fish finder, and now, you know, my dad just bought a hummingbird, um, and it's got like 1.3 gigahertz, it's like you know 100 megahertz. Now it's got it's like mega down imaging and it's taking pictures of the bottom. And then you got side scan that goes out 500 feet either side of your boat and now you got mega side imaging and now you got live scope where it's basically a video, and all that's happened in like 10 years. And I think they're really coming to a head where I think Texas banned some tournaments, banned live scope, into a head where I think Texas banned some tournaments banned.

Speaker 1: 16:03

LiveScope and it's just that conversation where it's like they're having that conversation where it's like, okay, now we might have to pump the brakes. And then you're seeing the same thing with cell cameras too, Like Kansas banning them on. I don't know if it's just public land or if it's everywhere, but I know sometimes cell cameras are getting banned, or all trail cameras.

Speaker 2: 16:25

so I think, there's a lot of places starting to have that conversation with with fishing, I think, because the tournaments are so much bigger, like, let's be honest, you, you could throw a bass, a fishing tournament, honestly, almost anywhere, right with hunting, it's it's it's not quite the same. So I think, with with that whole aspect, there's a lot of money on the line and it's not quite the same. So I think, with that whole aspect, there's a lot of money on the line and it's in the same realm that these sports franchises are. You know, really worried about gambling and having no one cheat and like why the players can't gamble, like do any type of gambling, and everything like that, because now, you're dealing with people's money and livelihood and everything like that. So with fishing, I definitely can understand why it would be abandoned, which I think is a great idea. Listen, if you're just doing it recreational, okay, all right, you can go either way. But I think definitely, when you're putting money down on the board or you're, you can win a huge sum of money, or whatever the case is, that's where it's like all right, you definitely have to draw the line there and cut some, if not all, at least a big, big majority of that out. You know, um, just to make the chase a little fair for for everyone too. And it's um, but hunting, yeah, it's getting into the same way.

Speaker 2: 17:38

I think you know, I think even I love cell cameras, I love trail cameras and don't get me wrong but I could see why States are starting to move this way, I think. I think it needs to stay where it is, that I don't think it can keep going anymore. I think this is really like if if we're at our limit with trail cameras, I'd much rather see it right here. I don't want to be able to jump on, and I imagine there might be a camera that can do live. I think maybe spartan cam can right, but I don't. I don't want a camera with live feed. Like that's a little too much. Like there's certain things that are a little too much, you know. So, like I'm fine where trail cameras are at right now. I think this is, this is the max of of what they should be going to what do you think about drones?

Speaker 2: 18:28

if you're using them to retrieve. If I think we've talked about this before, in the pocket, if not, you know if we're talking about after a hunt or after a shot. You know we need to do everything in our power to find that deer. So I do like drones in that aspect. But I'm totally agreed to no tracking, no, no finding deer.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Don't use it to know tracking your deer, you know bad shot, whatever the case is. I a hundred. But we want every opportunity to recover that deer. But there has to be a limit on that too as well.

Speaker 1: 19:04

You should also have a license too, because, like, you would just say, like oh, I'm throwing up a drone to find my deer, but then, like, in the process of that, you found, like all these other deer. Whereas if you have like a third party, kind of like the tracking dog, like I think, you have to pass them certification. I'm not entirely sure what that process is, I'm pretty ignorant to that, but, um, it's a third party that like has. From what I understand, they have to remain somewhat neutral and they'll only show you where your deer is, and I don't think they're supposed to tell you anything else. So it's got to be something like that too, where somebody can't just say they're throwing up a drone and you know, and uh, and doing it, you know yeah, that's a good point, because I mean the tracker.

Speaker 3: 19:46

Yeah, the recovery aspect is critically important, but then it's just an ethics thing, like all right, why are you really flying up there right now, like yeah, um, so yeah, I like that.

Speaker 2: 19:56

The same thing that dog trackers have to do yeah, and I believe in new jersey it took a For for dog trackers to to be like approved or whatever the case was in New Jersey and someone if Mike, if you know this, or someone out there listening knows this I'm pretty sure like it wasn't like as popular as it now. Like through the years I've seen dog track. I use my first tracker, you know, this year, and I'm very happy and glad that that I did, did and that was available because you know what I I don't think I didn't find the deer, but I knew I was not going to track it, like I did obviously with that, with that dog, like there was times where there was no blood and this dog was just, yeah, just going and going, and you know it, we ended up realizing this this deer is, is not dead and you know, I think a couple of weeks later he was, she was out on the, on the, on the cam. So it's like all right, if I didn't have that ability, I probably would have been out. I would have been still stuck at at probably the point of impact because she didn't bleed also for a while as well.

Speaker 2: 20:59

No arrow, no, no arrow, no nut Like the arrow. I still have yet to find the arrow to this day. So it definitely has its. The benefits of it is I definitely agree for tracking is, I think, needed Besides that, no.

Speaker 1: 21:14

Mike found you found an extra extracurricular benefit from the tracking dog this year. Right, something else found your deer first, first that you know. Maybe the tracking dog might have alerted you too yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:29

So I mean I knew they were there because the the bear walked down the fence line. So it was like an afternoon hunt, um, earn a buck. So I was looking for my doe and I see the doe coming. She's walking down and then she freezes and there's more noise. And then I look and sure enough, there's a black bear like walking down this fence line and he ignores her, he's just fucking cruises through and she's no longer spooked. She comes in and I shoot her, release an arrow, hit her. I'm like that's a good hit, that's a good hit, like. I'm like, sweet, I'm going to track her. I'm going to be like back home for dinner. This is going to be awesome. And then I get down there and, sure enough, there's no blood. Took me a while to find the arrow. I found it. It was definitely gutty, but I knew it was a good hit. It was just quartering two and could not find blood and went home, had dinner, did everything, went back with my buddy, we're looking again and we found some blood. We had an idea where it went.

Speaker 3: 22:43

And we're out in this field in the middle of the night, just kind of at this point grid, searching this field, and you just hear I don't even know how to describe it. Actually I just read another story about a bear encounter, like hot, wet breath and like the sound of like paws, like like charging through the, through the grass, and then the woofing and then you hear a body drop and my buddy turns to me and he's like let's get out of here. So I actually wrote a story about that. It's on Field Ethos. Um, uh, what was that? One called Getting Lucky on Field Ethos. So that's a great story. But anyway, we the next day we get out of there and just call the dog tracker just to see what's what. And yeah, the dog eventually found the deer, not where we were. The bear drug it off into some thicket and having its way with the deer, and so we got some closure out of that having its way with the deer and uh so we got some closure out of that.

Speaker 2: 23:48

Oh my god, that's insane, that that is a, that is a worry. That is a worried, I would definitely say, about hunting uh jersey, especially north jersey, like I've heard of stories and people running into that, but like I couldn't even imagine like, oh man, like like that gives gives you shivers, but you know what it's a part of, it's a part of life here, so you kind of just go with it.

Speaker 1: 24:11

It is like the New Jersey bow hunt culture.

Speaker 2: 24:14

Yeah, you're not a Jersey bow hunter until you had an encounter with a New Jersey black bear.

Speaker 1: 24:20

Yeah, and so you've had, like a, a less than comfortable interaction.

Speaker 3: 24:26

Yeah, that was definitely my my least comfortable interaction at night, minimal headlamp I had like a red light and this thing was behind us did you get any eyes on it at all, or not, that night?

Speaker 2: 24:40

no, yeah how big was the bear when you first originally saw it, like earlier in the day I mean that one, I don't know I'm guessing here, maybe 250, 300 pounds not huge, um, but they're definitely.

Speaker 3: 24:55

But then again, I mean, there are so many bears around here like I've seen, like a big 500 pounder walking around the neighborhood, right, yeah, um, and then we had two bear, two different bears, on camera, the next day too.

Speaker 2: 25:07

So it's like when um loaded with them yeah, I mean how much of the deer was left.

Speaker 3: 25:15

Uh, the deer was mostly intact.

Speaker 1: 25:16

It ate out the guts, ah okay, so I've heard that's very common um it's just like the fastest, most nutrient-dense thing that any animal can get down, so that's what goes first.

Speaker 3: 25:28

Yeah, One cool thing. I wish I took pictures of bite marks on the snout of the deer so you can tell it was picking it up by the face.

Speaker 2: 25:39

And dragging it, dragging it. Do you think the deer was somewhat alive when it found it, or you think it it already? Inspired, I know you think it died? Okay, yeah, I think it died in the field I don't think the bears care very much.

Speaker 1: 25:56

They just eat them live too, that's a rough way to go. Yeah, they eat you live, they don't. They're a lot like cats, where they'll kill you, I guess, first. Before they start eating on you, the bears, I think, will just start munching wherever they first feel like yeah, I mean, the only wounds were like on the face and they were like very minimal.

Speaker 3: 26:15

You could tell it like picked it up a couple times and yeah, jesus christ, that's that's all things considered.

Speaker 1: 26:24

The little field dress for you didn't damage the meat too much.

Speaker 3: 26:27

Yeah, the meat was good. It was a cool night. There may or may not have been some. What did he make with them? I forget Some enchiladas or something. Yeah that deer did not go to waste, that's for sure of course, one way or another, that's awesome man that was a great story.

Speaker 1: 26:54

I read that story. Uh, for sure, check it out. Field ethos it's um how many stories?

Speaker 2: 27:01

oh sorry, god uh how many stories you have on field ethos.

Speaker 1: 27:05

I guess at this point, like you've been writing for them for a while and we've bounced stories off each other a few times, it's been mostly one sided on terms of input, where you've definitely been the better source of reason there. But yeah, I mean you've got a, what is it? Eight, eight or nine?

Speaker 3: 27:23

Yeah, something like that, less than 10. I got a backlog of stories. That's kind of my thing Again, going back to like childhood my dad. My dad was a writer. It's never anything I thought I would do professionally and even now it's still mostly like a hobby. It's not how I take care of my family, but I've just always enjoyed storytelling and been good at writing.

Speaker 3: 27:48

And then you know, just sitting here at my desk like I'll think of stories like oh yeah, that one key thing was funny, like the first one I submitted was about it was fish camp surgery and we were up in northwestern ontario and my buddy hooked me in the back with a giant treble hook. We were fishing for walleye and pike and um, yeah, you know we're a float plane ride in. So you know three hooks dug in my back. We had to do some bush surgery to get them out. So like edgy, funny stories like that. But then part of me now it's kind of like even in the mundane, like you know, I like to like my quintessential story is like you killed a little deer, but there was something crazy about the story that makes it really funny and engaging for the reader and like explore that or you didn't see any deer like what are just the crazy things that happen to you while you're out hunting and fishing, and who are the people that you meet as well?

Speaker 1: 28:46

yeah, it's, and I think I mean I guess you would explain what field ethos is a little bit more, and I've read a bunch of their stories and and I think the same thing that meteor does really well and that it explains that hunting is not about like the kill shot and that's something like I grew up and you'd watch grew up watching Saturday morning.

Speaker 1: 29:04

We I wouldn't watch cartoons, I'd watch like real tree outdoors with my dad, and it was just mostly like here's where we are, this is what we want to do, and then here's a shoot in the deer and then that's it. I mean there was no failed haunts. There was no. You know unique aspects of it. You know unique aspects of it. It's just like I'm gonna go shoot 160 inch deer and you guys are just gonna watch it walk in and then be shooted at 20 yards and and then no, nothing else, nothing else is important, um, you know. So I think that's the same thing that field ethos does a good job of, is like it's more about the hunt and then just it's about the build up to it. That I enjoy and I think is important to convey.

Speaker 3: 29:47

Yeah. So Field Ethos, I'll try to do them justice here, but you know I wouldn't say they're like a hunting specific magazine. They're an adventure based like lifestyle magazine and I don't know they're just kind of focused on like old school, authentic adventure. So obviously a lot of that can be hunting and fishing, but it can be, you know, racing cars through the desert or just going on crazy trips, getting into trouble, getting out of trouble, near death experiences, all that. So it's, it's definitely a cool.

Speaker 3: 30:22

I really enjoy that genre of writing. I enjoy the edgier style of writing and having just even like participating in this, in that magazine, like remotely, digitally, as just a contributor right Anybody can submit stories to Field Ethos. You just meet a lot of cool people, even just digitally and socially, which is really cool. And then, because of that, I went to the Dallas Safari Club convention in in Dallas. When was that? Early January, which is really kind of trippy. I don't have you ever been to any of those like big, like outdoor shows, like the safari focused ones? I don't know, have you ever been to any of those like big, like outdoor shows, like the safari focused ones? I don't know if you guys have gone to those.

Speaker 2: 31:10

Not the safari focused ones. The only shows I've gone to is the great American outdoor show multiple times yearly, annually, like that is our thing, and then you know just some, some local ones, but nothing, nothing in the safari nature, not at all yeah, I mean I guess it's dallas safari club and I'm not going to do them justice explaining what they do.

Speaker 3: 31:35

But obviously they advocate for uh conservation and obviously are pro hunting and fishing and all that. But just going to a place like that and being exposed to all those like kind of global outfitters like obviously you know you can find all the north american big game stuff there too, but just like the amount of hunting uh like conservation focused hunting that goes on in africa, like that's a whole new world to me. That, that that field ethos kind of opened my eyes to um, which is really interesting. And then obviously there's more stuff all over the world too, it's not just africa is that the game plan for you?

Speaker 2: 32:13

eventually? Where would you be into, because I know I believe you were just fishing. Where were you just fishing at? Um, we're in the bahamas andros. Okay, um hop, skip, jump from newark airport well, yeah, yeah, you know, I, I know I know africa's a bit farther, but or it doesn't even have to be africa, you know, it could be argentina or something like that. Like, do you have any um wants to to travel somewhere like that and to to do a hunt over there?

Speaker 3: 32:42

um it does I have some now? Like three years ago I probably just would have said no, I. But I, now I look at it more for the adventure. Um, yeah, like I don't consider myself like a trophy guy necessarily, but I don't know. Just the vastness of africa is kind of what. What caught my eye and the amount of different animals that are there, like from an event, and also the um, the dangerous game that they have like, adds a whole new element to it. So I definitely think it's something I want to experience. But like, if, if you're like Mike, what are you thinking about? Right now I'm thinking about killing an Adirondack buck, like, like that's. I don't know, man, maybe I'm a weirdo.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Deceptively difficult, doesn't get enough credit, those big but deceptively difficult. But yeah, I kind of agree I I don't know if I'd want to, even I'm not a photographer, but I think in that, like going with somebody going on the hunt and to maybe even just be a fly on the wall, is where my interest level lies at this point.

Speaker 2: 34:00

Now I say that until you're there, until you're there.

Speaker 1: 34:03

I'm going to want to pull the trigger on something, but yeah, I don't know. It's well, I don't think I'm there yet either.

Speaker 2: 34:10

Pete, and you could definitely verify. You know, know what I'm about to say is, but we recently just um, I imagine by the time this episode drops this Episode would have already dropped is with Mike Slinkard from from Hex, and you know a big part Of of what we're talking about, that X and that uh episode was His love for hunting After bow hunting, africa yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:31

You know, and it's really, yes, it's trophy hunting, but that's not like it means so much for the conservation of Africa. And you know the nothing is wasted. And you know, and he and same thing, the danger aspect he said, adds the whole other, like, oh my god, like these are animals that could easily kill you. I mean everything there can can kill you. And you know, I think what he said, um, he does have dreams of hunting a hippopotamus. Um, and that is one of. You know, you're looking at africa's deadly top five, you know, I think they're probably number number one with, I think the deaths to humans um, with a buffalo, yep, yep and and elephants, and, like you know so I was in the same boat.

Speaker 2: 35:17

Probably, as a lot of people, I've always said hell to the no, like I, I just don't. But now recently, this season alone on on our podcast, we've talked to so many people now that have hunt Africa and, you know, said only great things about it. Yeah, and it's really started to catch my interest where it's like I have goals of North America first, but like I could definitely, if things go well, I could see it being in for the horizon and, you know, maybe a new adventure in traveling somewhere different and hunting somewhere that I never expected to ever hunt in my life, only seen on, you know, discovery Channel or Animal Planet.

Speaker 3: 35:59

Yeah. So the thing that really gets me like in a good way, like, just like the adventure and the camaraderie of being out there and like driving around and like Land Rovers and like having the bar on the back of the truck like, and like hanging out with great people like who are like-minded, like that's what really. That's the primary thing that draws me to to wanting to go hunt Africa with a good group of guys, and if you follow the Field Ethos content, you'll see that. But then every once in a while I'm like you know, I'm just learning about this stuff like Cape Buffalo with a bow, like a lot of people say that's really stupid to do because you better make sure that thing dies where it's coming at you, right, like that, that danger element that's I don't know, that's yeah, bow hunting in Africa.

Speaker 2: 36:54

Yeah yeah, no bow hunting in Africa. Yeah, yeah, no bow hunting in Africa. Though it's like you want to talk about being a absolute badass going to Africa and accomplishing a buffalo or a hippo or something with a bow. It's like what do you say, peyton? How much was his arrow? What do you remember? I Um Peyton, how much was his his arrow? What do you remember?

Speaker 1: 37:15

Uh, 650 grain arrow and um, I guess how he was describing it is like you need to build that arrow for penetration. I think he had a titanium insert running the whole shaft length, um, and it's just the. He's mentioned the ball overlapping ribs. Overlapping ribs um, I'm not a, not a biologist, I'm not sure what that looks like or or anything like that, but essentially he just make he explained that you have to punch through bone and you have to build the arrow for that. So that's pretty cool. In like the, you have to build a custom arrow for Africa, um, and I know people do that for lots of different things, um, but yeah, it's 650 grain arrow is a heavy, heavy arrow.

Speaker 2: 38:02

Yeah, yeah, it is Um and it's. But look at what people are doing now just to kill white tail deer and that looks. I don't want to dive into the heavy verse, you know what's it, but it's like okay, this is what we're using for for buffalo, why the hell do we need one for for white-tailed deer like there's?

Speaker 1: 38:23

you cannot compare, compare the two yeah, and it is different too, because a Cape Buffalo is not going to squat the string. You know he's not going to drop to his belly in a instant, you know. So he's going to stand for the most. Yeah, I don't know. Again, I'm not a biologist. Maybe they do.

Speaker 2: 38:44

I don't think so.

Speaker 1: 38:46

I don't think so, I'd be very surprised and I would definitely not go to Africa if I saw, saw that footage, but uh, you know you gotta build different arrows for different things.

Speaker 1: 38:57

You know, like it, I think for whitetail it's, it's not extremely difficult to get a pass through. So in my opinion it's build the arrow that flies the truest, you know. And if you, you know there's little things, quality of your steel and your broadhead, you know, don't shoot crap. Have sharp, you know, high quality broadheads that get good arrow trajectory. And, uh, a little forward of center is always good too. Um, because as it steers through that, that animal that is mostly fluid on a whitetail it's like probably akin to shooting into water more than it is anything else and then so that'd probably be the best arrow set up for that. But it's hard to pivot there.

Speaker 2: 39:40

I agree with you on that Something. I definitely, mike. There's a couple of things but I was very interested when you even first talked about on your Instagram was you know, do hunting apps sell your hunting data? And the minute you said that because listen, that is yet again technology, just the. You know the fact that we can scout on our phones and be I can literally be in my bed, be like, okay, I need to see this, and like just the detail and everything it's become so popular. You know where did that? You know where did that idea kind of everything it's become so popular? You know where did that? You know where did that idea kind of like come from? And you know, can you talk to the people about some of your, your findings on that as well?

Speaker 3: 40:19

yeah, sure. So my professional background is in cyber security and specifically like ethical hacking. So my background was in software development and then I just started like literally hacking stuff. And so what does that mean from a business perspective? We're not actual criminals, right? So companies would hire us to show how their software and systems are vulnerable to data theft or other negative things that impact data privacy for their users. So that's my background. You know other, you know other negative things that impact data privacy for their users. So that's my background.

Speaker 3: 40:53

I'm always thinking about, especially with apps, any app, whether it's a banking app or a hunting app, they function the same way, like they take user input and they send it to the back end and then it's manipulated and put into a database or whatever. So so I look at you know an app like Onyx or Spartan Forge or any of these apps like all right. The first question I ask is I wonder how hard or easy it would be to, you know, steal Peyton's scouting data and see where Peyton is hunting. So that's a risk, right? Like can people just hack these applications? I think from a software industry point of view, it is a lot easier today to produce more secure apps than it was like five years ago. There's also a lot more awareness right amongst the software development community, and so that's good. So you know, am I ever worried that people are going to hack these apps and steal my scouting data? No, not necessarily.

Speaker 3: 41:57

I do think that there are potential like data implicate or potential privacy implications with how these companies aim to make money, like that's the big question. And what are they going to do with your hunting data that you value and just kind of brings you joy and, um, you know, makes you happy? How are they going to turn that into money on the back end? And, but more specifically, how are they going to do that in ways that might be counter to the interests of hunters, right? Um, so we earlier we were talking about the game surveys, right, the fish and game surveys.

Speaker 3: 42:35

Fish and game agencies, they're kind of thirsty for information, for data. Government agencies, too, people who you know craft law and regulation. Well, hey, if you're in that business, wouldn't it be nice to have some actual data about what's going on in the woods, on public lands, even on private lands, maybe, I don't know. Lots of people like to make data driven decisions. So you know, what are these companies in general likely to do with that kind of data, right To monetize it on the back end? And that's something I think about Like a bad case scenario would be a company decides to make that data available to the government and then they say oh yeah, you know what too much hunting pressure here, so we're going to shut it down.

Speaker 2: 43:20

Right, that's true, very, very, very you know kind of worst case scenario for my very scary scenarios to even think about, but it's true, especially, I imagine, what if the data is like you can't really trust our government, especially a certain half. That's really against what we do. The influence from you know all these from, from like maybe peter or somebody, one of these big, big organizations, like the damage that could be done to our recreation and hunting and fishing, and what we do is a very scary thought, um, one that I wouldn't, I I would not want to see ever be used against us. That's, that's a damn sure.

Speaker 3: 44:14

Yeah, so and just so I'm not like, I don't want to come across like I'm crying Wolf sky is falling Right, but we can look at an app called Strava. You guys heard of Strava before.

Speaker 1: 44:26

Yeah, yeah, like the biking running.

Speaker 3: 44:27

Yeah, cyclists use it, use it. Um, yeah, cyclists use it and they gamify it so you can see who climbed this hill the fastest on their bike or ran the fastest. Whatever, strava has something called Strava Metro, which they actually do this for free. They make their data set and they'll say things like de-anonymized, de-identified, aggregate data right, they make that data available to government agencies, ngos, other organizations who are interested in, like, improving transportation, right? So on the surface, that's really great. You know, a city might say hey, say hey, strava metro, tell us how many cyclists run through this intersection. Oh, we need bike lanes, right? Um, and they actually do that for free. Well, a lot of these map hunting, mapping companies are aggregating all that data about what's going on in the woods, who's hunting, where they can also de-identify it and aggregate it. So like, yeah, there are you know, I'm making up numbers here you know, 3 000 deer hunters in zone 3 in new jersey yeah right then.

Speaker 3: 45:44

Do they give that data away? Do they sell it? But ultimately, how is that data used to impact your day-to-day as a hunter?

Speaker 1: 45:53

Interesting. Yeah, I don't think it's a far-fetched concept and I could definitely. I guess in some ways, maybe that I don't know if they. Yeah, it would be bad if they used it to limit opportunities, because I'm all anything that limits opportunities. Um, to access is something I'm against. Now, that's not a blanket statement.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Maryland closed the trophy season for what we call rockfish. Everybody else calls striped bass. In the chesapeake bay there's like a moratorium that fish is hurting. There's nobody that'll tell you that fish isn't hurting. So that's something I'm okay with.

Speaker 1: 46:35

Right, the as conservationists will give up that access, but when you're, this piece of public is too pressured. Now we're limiting access to this piece of public. You know, um, I know there's like wildcat was closed now that was people running dirt bikes, but it's not far-fetched for a piece of public to get closed. Where it could also go the other way, though, and be a good thing, is you could get maybe some data on zones and maybe you say, okay, like, this zone is getting hit harder, maybe you cater the price of tags based off of how much it gets haunted to try to reduce pressure. That way, maybe there's things that they could do to actually benefit. So I it's a double edged sword and I guess it could you're. You're walking on a knife edge and it could go the evil for us or it could go positive. I think exactly yeah so.

Speaker 3: 47:30

So how do you, how do you act on this data as a hunter? Like? I think here's the real practical advice. If you survey, like all the companies that have hunt mapping applications, right, you need to look at the company itself and think is this a hunting company or is this a tech company that has a hunting app? Because what you'll see, some of these companies are diversifying and they have applications for different utilizations, right? And if that's the case and you're not a hunting company but you are capturing hunter data, you're not a hunting company. What are you likely to do with that data? And now we get into the PIDAs of the world, right, like, who are you likely to do with that data? And now we get into the PETAs of the world, right, like, who else is willing to pay for that data?

Speaker 2: 48:18

Yeah, it's slippery slope right, Very, very slippery slope yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:24

As a hunter, I think you have to find a company that aligns with your core values, and those are the companies that you support.

Speaker 2: 48:31

Yeah, what were some of your findings with some of the companies that you support? Yeah, what were some of your findings with some of the apps that you you know you were, you were looking into?

Speaker 3: 48:38

Yeah, I didn't look at anything technically, but I read a bunch of privacy policies. So anybody who wants to go and like try to understand what these companies are actually doing with the data. You can read their privacy policy, which is available on all of their websites. What I found was that and I'm not naming names here because I want people to look at these companies, assess their core values, read the privacy policies if you actually really care, and then make your own decision. But what you'll see is that some of them are very they're very vague policies. They'll basically say, yeah, we don't sell your data, we don't do anything bad with your data. And then there are some that will have very, very specific, lengthy privacy policies that, I'll be honest, they are plain English, like you could read them.

Speaker 3: 49:29

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not gonna say these are actual like legal documents per se, but states like state of California will mandate that you have a privacy policy and it has to cover certain areas, and they will do a good job of again trying to explain in plain English what they do. But what I find in some of them is they kind of start to get a little circular. Like we don't sell private data. They'll say that we don't sell your private data. They'll just say that right in the beginning, but then later on they'll say you know we reserve the right to share de-identified aggregate data with our business partners.

Speaker 1: 50:15

Could you explain what that means a little bit? I think I have an idea, but just so the de-identified aggregate data.

Speaker 3: 50:19

Yep, yeah. So you're using an app, you drop a pin, it's under Peyton's account, it's got a lat launch and he sticks a big like buck icon on it. All right, all right, this is payton's big buck somewhere in a database, somewhere it's got like payton's user id, the buck identifier and the lat launch, and then whatever other information you put in there, that's like private information. That's payton's data. If you found that record in a database, you could identify that back to Payton. What you can do is you can de-identify that data so you can strip the whole user identity from it, right? So now it's like untied from Payton's username, just a latitude, longitude and then maybe some other data, right, I think. And again, you can get into the details of it.

Speaker 3: 51:13

Like is the lat launch still personally identifiable information? It could be considered so. Like, let's say, the pin is on your house, right? So it gets kind of squirrely really quick. But generally speaking, there's data that clearly belongs to you, there's data that is stripped of your identity, right? And then there's aggregate data. So instead of saying like, hey, here are the 300 buck pins that are in this geographic area, here are the actual pins, like data for each pin, the data just becomes there are 300 buck pins in this geographic area, right? So that's the identified-identified aggregate data. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 51:54

yeah, right it's. You're basically like bleaching personal information on it. But the problem becomes who's really to say you know it's like in a government environment, right, like you have like set criteria. But I guess my, my guess would be this is kind of a new, so there might not be concrete definitions in every situation. What is personal information? What icon did I drop? Would that be scrubbed or would that not be? Would the timestamps remain? If I say this is my house, know, and then you know it's somebody's house, then you know maybe that's not something you'd like to right.

Speaker 3: 52:38

so that now that that, yeah, if the the label on the waypoint is house and it's got the lat launch on it, and you look at it on google maps and then you reverse, look up the address, like oh're, like, oh, that's Peyton's house. That is not de-identified information, exactly.

Speaker 1: 52:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 52:57

And not in the hunting space, but like in telecom and other industries. I think Netflix actually did this a long time ago. They're like here's our data. Maybe it wasn't Netflix, don't hold me to that, but I think tech companies putting their data out there and saying, hey, is we think this is de-identified? Is it like, or can you find patterns and correlate back to identity?

Speaker 1: 53:21

yeah, I mean, I guess in any situation you're leaving breadcrumbs, yeah yeah yeah no, that's pretty.

Speaker 2: 53:28

What is there and you know, pay into and like any anyone listening, you know, is it also a worry that like? I mean maybe not a worry, because if you're doing everything legal, there's, there's no issue. But you know, do you think you know fish and wildlife? You know game or game and what, oh my god, fish and wildlife they use, like these Apps and to catch poachers. Do you think there's? You know there's any? You know? Do you think they probably have already started to like? Is this something that they're already doing Like or that they've probably talked about Like? Is there a possibility that could happen?

Speaker 1: 54:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 54:08

So read the privacy policies. They talk about disclosure to law enforcement and they'll talk about things like when, when they will disclose your data. Like if they feel like someone is at risk of harm or death, yeah, they will disclose their data. So, all right, let's play it, let's extrapolate that a little bit. Right, I could come up with just mental scenarios. Um, I guess one is poaching all right, someone's poaching on a school property, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, and if you're doing that number one, you're an idiot. You shouldn't do that, you're dumbass. And then, if you're actually like dropping pins in onyx or some app to uh, to log, you know that you're there, like I don't know.

Speaker 2: 55:00

People do stupid things though. Like I could easily see somebody doing that and you know, having a pin somewhere, they really shouldn't be hunting and you know, I definitely know somebody probably out there is doing that, but it's a smart thing, though I'm not gonna lie, like I'm not worried because we're not. We're not poachers, but like yeah, I guess.

Speaker 1: 55:24

Like it becomes the question of like. If I'm scouting and I drop a pin at like I'm at home, I got nothing better to do. I'm looking at onyx. I do it all the time I drop a pin at like I'm at home, I got nothing better to do. I'm looking at onyx, I do it all the time. I drop a pin at one in the morning on a field, just with a buck icon. Be like oh, that's point of interest. Um, am I gonna get? Oh the dnr. Like, oh, he's spotlighting deer. You know it's like and I'm not, and it's easy to prove that I'm not, but it's like, I feel like yeah, why did?

Speaker 3: 55:51

you drop this pin at two in the morning yeah, yeah, or they, they're gonna come to you.

Speaker 2: 55:54

Know the? The fact that they're gonna come to your house and knock on the door when you really didn't do anything, but they don't know that it's? It's a?

Speaker 1: 56:03

thing maybe, but I mean it's so keep your stuff private. I guess there is a legitimate and, I think, valid concern for not wanting to share your private stuff.

Speaker 3: 56:15

How the data, like you put the data in for one reason, and then how it's interpreted down the road. Five years from now, who knows? They could say, oh look, there were, you know, 5,000 gun hunters in this area, near these schools, right, and it's just spinning the data, right? So I don't know, I just always say less data near these schools, right, and it's just spinning the data, right? So I don't know. I just always say less data, less risk. That's my personal approach to everything, just this.

Speaker 2: 56:44

Yeah, no, and that's pretty fair, especially with everything. Now. Data is so easily available and just on this phone here, like gosh forbid if someone hacked my phone or was able to get into my phone. Like what's on your phones now? Everything, yeah, Everything. They track everything.

Speaker 3: 57:03

Have you guys? Are you guys familiar with the corner crossing case in Wyoming?

Speaker 1: 57:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 57:08

Yeah, I know Meat Eater covered that. Yeah, but there was a recent, actually from early March. There was an article on Outdoor Life. Did you guys see that article?

Speaker 1: 57:20

I don't know if I ever covered that.

Speaker 3: 57:21

I'll share it with you guys. You can google it up. I think the title of the article is literally like what does Onyx do with your data, or something like that, and it's trying to answer the question that we're talking about right now and a couple of points about that. Article One, I don't know. I feel like that article glossed over certain points. They just say, hey, does ONIX sell your data to individuals? And they say no, okay, fine, but it's a much more nuanced question than that and I think we explored that earlier in our conversation. But they also talk about the corner crossing case and they have some quotes. Are you pulling it up, mike?

Speaker 2: 57:58

Yeah, I'm looking at it.

Speaker 3: 57:59

Yeah, because I think they they talk to the lawyer who is involved in the corner crossing case and I think, like pins and GPS data were came up, were subpoenaed and it came up as part of that part of that.

Speaker 1: 58:13

Yes, and I because I think it was they had dropped a pin. I could be totally misquoting, but I think that they dropped the pin. And essentially how it works, it's like a grid. Imagine a checkerboard right and they were crossing let's just say, white is private land, black is public, they're crossing from black to black to stay on public and but they had dropped a pin. That was like they were hunting kind of adjacent and the pin had just like so happened to be in the white. And that happens like if you're doing tracking, there's a uncertainty, a tolerance, let's say, uh, and of where that pin will fall. And they might have thought they were dropping it right on their little blue dot of this is where I am now and it just kind of snapped over the fence. And I think that came up in court of like you guys had a pin here and it was on private, but I think that got thrown out pretty quickly. But I could be totally misquoting that and if that's the case, mike, edit this out.

Speaker 2: 59:06

But yeah, I mean, I mean like this is. I mean, I'm still reading there there is. It is a very long, long read, but um, you know it's. Let's see. The beginning says I pulled up to a two track on the side of the dirt road years ago while turkey hunting in wyoming black hills. A tangled barbed wire fence stretched across the road and the sign saying posted no trespassing. There should have been a silver sliver of public land I could shimmy through, attached to a bigger stretch of public, but my paper map was characterly vague. I fired up a handheld GPS with a chip made by a relatively new company called on X, and it confirmed what I thought. I knew the barbed wire fence and sign were closer to the road than they should have been. Someone was snagging just a little extra property for themselves and cutting off access to a big chunk of public land in the process. And then that's that's how it starts and then it goes into a uh, a very detailed, a very interesting detail that I need to read this one.

Speaker 3: 1:00:14

I don't know if I've read this one yet yeah, no, it was a pretty good article and you know we shouldn't like shit all over these apps either, because that's like a very valid use, like all right, finding where you got to go, finding public access, like knowing where you are. I think the again it's just the less data, the better.

Speaker 1: 1:00:33

You don't have to put everything into onyx yeah, I mean you could look up somebody's house. It'd be my roommate, we're playing with it yesterday. I tell you tennant's last name and there's his parents house. Yeah, you know, and that's all you need, which is you know? And now, like I have the highest level of onyx, I think it's premium, but it's like a relatively low cost. It's like for $120 a year, you get where anybody lives in the country, which is you think about, not a large investment if you want to do some more.

Speaker 3: 1:01:05

Yeah, that is very true as well. So then, how are they making their money?

Speaker 2: 1:01:09

That's fair that is fair I can yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a true, it's a very true statement as well, like where is? Because it's not, it's really it's, it's a good deal, so so so that's a good question.

Speaker 3: 1:01:25

If you had like higher degrees of data privacy or security, would you pay more?

Speaker 2: 1:01:39

I guess it depends, but the same functionality yeah yeah, I probably, I probably would. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I don't own a property.

Speaker 1: 1:01:50

Um, yeah, okay, so there you go. If it was Like, I guess I don't have anything worth stealing, so, being like a younger guy, so I like I guess it depends on what you. I think that's a question of like, what do you have to protect? What do you have to be worried about?

Speaker 3: 1:02:03

Yeah. So again, it's not about stealing your data. It's about how are they monetizing your data on the backend. They selling it to PETA, are they giving it to the government? That's true. What are you going to do with your data? What's your business model? How are you making money off of my hunting data and my hunting experience? Those are the ethics at play.

Speaker 1: 1:02:23

Now I don't want to give any ideas to people I don't necessarily agree with, but if PETA was to buy all my bear pins and set up in my tree before I got there, that'd be pretty irritating.

Speaker 2: 1:02:36

Oh don't worry, they think they could be friends with the bear, so I don't think it would end really well. Just spray some racket or glaze down on all of them.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

That stuff works pretty good. You should infiltrate PETA, yeah, you should. What? See what they're up to? Oh yeah, hit them up. Yeah, I have a friend that that thought that was funny to uh to report my posts to pita, to tag them in it, um, online it. But uh, hopefully I it's. I'm still flying under their radar they did it.

Speaker 3: 1:03:10

Well, they did it to because they thought it was funny, or they did it to try to report you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:15

They thought it was funny. Okay, it's like my buddy, he's like it's funny, but it's messed up. Yeah, he's like you seeing this at PETA.

Speaker 2: 1:03:26

Listen, if it was my personal account, I'd be like, eh, if it's you know, know, the boondocks hunting account and my friend, we'd be fighting because if, if that got shut down, I would be fuming.

Speaker 3: 1:03:39

Yeah, yeah. What are your guys thoughts on like the current state of like hunting social media content in general?

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

uh, that's something that you've battled with, um for sure. I know you've had your wrestles with that. I've been pretty fortunate. I avoid I guess I'm cognizant of it Like I avoid gore, I avoid, I guess, weapons to some extent. I think bows they might be, but you had an issue with knives, which makes no sense, because I mean you can't post cooking content.

Speaker 3: 1:04:17

I think that one they were like. I don't even know what that one was. I know what it was a picture of a bear skull with a knife. I think they were trying to say I was either selling knives or I don't know they just uh did that with me on.

Speaker 2: 1:04:26

You know I did behind the scenes of our photo shoot and that got flagged. Like I get a lot of stupid things that get flagged and like I always have to, you know, rebuttal it and you know it's it's worked so far, but like it's a huge, it's a huge pain in the butt. So I'm starting to get that. But there are certain things like I we filmed, um, just the other day of frank teaching uh one of his ways how he guts uh trout, and you know I've I filmed and everything like that.

Speaker 2: 1:04:56

It's it's good content, but it's like that would make can't really put that yeah, I can't really put this on on instagram or youtube, like that might be something I would say for you know, when our, our website drops, like that might be something I would I'd say for our website or something like that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:10

But could be an article.

Speaker 2: 1:05:13

How, yeah, it could be, it could be an article, because it's a really unique way and I I love the way that he did it and you know it to teach other people like and stuff like that. Like, that's the main goal of what, what we want to do, especially the new, the new hunters, the new, the new fishermen. This is how you do it, but where we have our hands tied Behind our backs because there's certain things that we can't do, and if we do it and it's Yet again it may fly Under the radar because we're smaller, but you don't want to take that Risk as as well.

Speaker 1: 1:05:48

Yeah, you got to be cognizant of it and it's on the Back of your mind. It's frustrating because you're not doing anything Wrong, but they're. You know what you do is villainized. I guess to some extent Told you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:58

If I was a girl, I could have my tits and ass on on on Instagram and.

Speaker 3: 1:06:03

I mean that's that you took the question in a different direction.

Speaker 3: 1:06:09

I was kind of going down that angle like the hunting influencer oh, okay, so okay, but even just like cringy content in general, like like what are, what are the boundaries? When does when does something stop being funny and is just, I don't know? I, I my buddy, he posted something they they try to take a lot of these like influencers to task, right, and it was this chick, like I don't know, pretending to be a turkey, or it was so like weird, lamely funny, but he took issue with it. So like, what are the lines between like good hunting content, funny, hot hunting, hot hunting content, and then like straight up cringe?

Speaker 1: 1:06:55

I guess it's like with anything, and it's like if you want to view it as an art form, then there's like a spectrum to it and, like you know, there's some people that probably think that's hilarious. Like you know, I know, like I have like like an old guy or a young kid will like send you something that he thinks is hilarious on facebook and I'm like and it doesn't do it for me, but they think they think it's hilarious, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:17

so I guess it's like talking about me on instagram because I'd be sending a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:07:21

No, no dog shots there no, you're not quite that old yet. Uh, I was talking about like you know, like like my uncles and stuff. You know he sent something. I'm like, yeah, it's like a not not my cup of tea, but you know, there's just, there's levels of humor, so it's just like. Whatever you want it to be, I don't know, I don't think it should be limited. You know, I might think it's stupid, but I'm never going to tell somebody that it's stupid. I guess it's my point yeah that that algorithm like's.

Speaker 2: 1:07:50

There's some things and you know I'm not going to say any names or drop anything but like there's a few people that do some like and I'm like it's just not me, that's, that's a little cringy and it's just weird, especially as a like a man like you're, this is what you're doing. Like okay, if you were, I would definitely like okay, if you're a high school or maybe just out of college, like some of these guys are doing certain things where it's like all right, like I would see that if you're younger but you get, you got a wife and you got kids and this is this is kind of what you're doing. Like I don't know, man, that's not really, that's not really my style, but like I just I just go right past and I'm like whatever, like honestly, do what you want to do. I'm not going to judge you like who, whatever, but it's just not.

Speaker 1: 1:08:33

It's just not my style. Or you page, yeah yeah. And it's like my mom will send me like kick talks or whatever. I'm just like I'm going to watch them, cause it's like I don't want to watch this. This is not going to be funny, but everybody finds different things funny, so you know sometimes that cringy stuff, like when I was little I watched um a lot of like the gook and squad fishing. Now I think it's kind of cringy yeah, I don't want them as much as I used to as a kid.

Speaker 1: 1:09:02

I thought that was awesome, you know, and I thought, and that really got me into fishing and that, like, actually inspired me to start going on long distance fishing trips. So you know, just because I guess we don't, I don't see the positive of it now and I don't like it now, it doesn't mean it's not still, doesn't mean it's not going to be cool to get somebody into the outdoors yeah, because I don't watch their stuff now, but as a kid I think it got a lot of people into fishing, which is a net positive for what I want to do now yeah, I'll agree with you on that.

Speaker 2: 1:09:30

Like the Guggen squad, like One rod, one reel, like Like the one rod one reel wasn't like he's Cringy in a different way, but he's like he's just that goofy, like he just seems Like he's just he's just goofy, like he Doesn't seem like as Cringy as watching now the Guggen squad which, hey, kudos to them. I'm not judging them, like I said, because Look at what they've created, like you know, and look there, look at how their fishing baits are doing, look how they are popular. But I do, I do, yes, they do, they do. I use some of their stuff, so don't get me wrong. Like I do love their baits and everything like that. But I do think I agree with pain like they are.

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

When I was younger, like that, I was watching that constantly, like at work, you know in, know in school, during class, like when I've got, you know, certain jobs, I was doing that when I come home, like hey, yo, that's what I'm watching. Like same thing with like I was a huge demolition ranch guy, you know, just watching this guy just shoot a whole bunch of guns and like do all these like crazy things with guns. And now it's like like I just I just don't watch that shit. It just doesn't feel tailored to to really me anymore. But you know, every now and then I'll like I'll, I'll tune in, but you know, I hope I'm not offending anyone who's who's my age or older that that watches, uh, watches, these videos. But I think I think it's good to grow the outdoors. I will say that I think what they're doing is excellent, because they are growing the outdoors. A lot of people are interested in what they do.

Speaker 1: 1:10:54

I just and they're not telling people to do anything like. And I would get to the point where it's like until you're it's detrimental, right, but they're not. I think they do a good job of like not blowing up spots. For the most part, like you know, people can criticize them for that because it's like in the background, it's like if anybody could do that work and figure it out. But it's like until you're like telling somebody to do something wrong or like just like, oh, go, kill this fish, it's a trash fish. Like kill all the carp. If you catch a carp, kill a carp. But it's like until you're telling people to do like stupid stuff, like that and it's not detrimental or against the law. Or just like morally wrong and like, yeah, that's what you want to pose, man did you see the guy who killed the wolf cub in wyoming?

Speaker 3: 1:11:33

that come across your feet yet no, not yet. Oh no, I'm thinking google it up before I um I'll do it say something that was like fake news or something, but it was um immediately right now yeah, jamie, pull that up yeah there we go.

Speaker 2: 1:11:54

That. That's gonna be Peyton's new job title now is he did I tortured it?

Speaker 3: 1:12:03

let me see if I can find it uh, it's a february 29th.

Speaker 1: 1:12:05

A sublet county man reportedly captured and tormented a wolf in daniel wyoming, taped its mouth shut, showed it off in a bar before taking it out back and shooting it man there jordan's session of a live wolf. This is cowboy state daily.

Speaker 3: 1:12:21

Yeah, that was the story, but he was taking pictures with it and I don't know. That kind of made my stomach turn. That pissed me off. Regardless of where you stand on, like wolves out west, like I know they're a contentious issue, like fine, you know you have problem wolves, you shoot them Like whatever Within the law. But to do something like that, that's fucking gross yeah, it's not haunting, it's not ethical, it's not.

Speaker 1: 1:12:49

You know, when it's like, the number one rule is to like quick, ethical, clean shots. You know what your heart is with the lowest net suffering you know, to that animal and if that you know, you put your discomfort above that of you know what you want your harvest to be, and that's just like the antithesis of that, you know, and it just gives us all a bad name. So, yeah, I think it's equally important to like speak out against that stuff not just like, see, like, and this is what I have a problem with.

Speaker 2: 1:13:20

Oh, my bad it's. We got a little delay, delay here oh my bad no, no, it's, it's.

Speaker 2: 1:13:27

Um, it was only a 250 fine on that's. That is like, because I'm reading this now, this is such a heinous like I don't respect this at all. Like, like you were saying, like we do things ethically, like this is quick, clean, kills, the best way that we can. Yes, sometimes bad shots happen, but like we want it done quickly. Like this guy taped the damn mouth shut, transported it back home, like, and you only give it a 250 fine. Like sorry that it needs to be, I think, poaching or doing anything illegal.

Speaker 2: 1:14:04

Listen, I don't care how much money. Make it something crazy. Make it listen $10,000. Make it jail time a little bit. Do something right. You lose your license for five to ten. You got to set your side. $250 is. Like me, I paid more for drinking in public in Morristown during St Patrick's day, which is not illegal, it's just a ordinance violation. So just the town says no, right. I was waiting in line for in a bar, me and my friends, we had a beer and boom, $500 ticket. So you're telling me I paid more for a ticket waiting in line to go into a bar for having a sip of alcohol than a guy did for running over a wolf with a snowmobile chasing it down with a snowmobile to exhaustion and taping its mouth shut, bringing it back to its house and then Brack bet and then to a bar, where that's where he.

Speaker 2: 1:15:07

He killed it yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:15:09

I don't think, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:15:14

It's the heinousness of that crime. That's, I don't know. Yeah, that's this, I don't care how much and I get it. Wolves right now are a hot topic, you know. We've talked about it a bunch of times now on this on the show with recent, you know episodes, but that is no excuse to to do something like that, like that's, I don't know that. Yeah, it's disgusting for sure. Yeah, um, and you know now, with that disgusting little you know side of of what pieces of shit some people are out there, let's get to something a little more positive as well. You went elk hunting this year. Yeah, how many. So how many times have you gone and you know what was your experience like this year?

Speaker 3: 1:15:58

um, so I've been. Uh, that was my third year going to the same place, small outfitter group of guys I got in because my cousin is oh, did we lose Peyton? You still there? Mike.

Speaker 2: 1:16:22

I'm so hairy. Can you hear me? Now I can hear you. I was muted. I always usually mute when people see your way for paid to get back. Let's see.

Speaker 3: 1:16:33

I want to start again.

Speaker 2: 1:16:35

He had to run to the bathroom real quick, ok, ok.

Speaker 3: 1:16:38

So you can edit you. You do editing like you'll cut shit like this out.

Speaker 2: 1:16:43

Yeah, yeah, ok, okay, I cut this out yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:16:46

I only said like one really dumb thing earlier that I caught where I was. Like I don't really consider myself a trophy hunter.

Speaker 2: 1:16:53

Meanwhile I'm like oh yeah no, but you know, I get, I get what people I I get, because that's the thing on, like going for african games, it's like, oh, it's a trophy where it's it's not really because yes and no, because everything's a trophy, like this year it's a trophy to me, yeah, but I also take the meat like we all eat, like it's just an accomplishment.

Speaker 2: 1:17:19

That's something that I think people who don't hunt they just they're never going to understand. Like we're very proud of what we do and, yes, we wear it or we we have it as a badge of honor behind us and everything like that but we eat. You know, this is all food that we eat. I think if they understood what goes into it and how much a lot of people invest into it, and the time, the blood, sweat and tears sometime in the front, like I think people would definitely understand it more. But you know, it's, it's just one of those things.

Speaker 3: 1:17:53

Yeah, I have an interesting story about that Cause when I, honestly, when I, when I started hunting, I wasn't even after like shooting a buck. I was just like, yeah, Cause I I honestly thought it was like outside, Be back Peyton. So yeah, he is back. When I first got started, I wasn't even like I'm going to, I'm going to go after a buck. Are you going now Mike?

Speaker 2: 1:18:17

No, I just want to check the uh, the camera battery.

Speaker 3: 1:18:20

Okay cool, um. So I was like I I'm not even going after bucks, I, I literally just want the meat. Like I think that'd be really cool to get my own meat, not go to Whole Foods every day. Like a little bitch, right, like. And then next thing, you know, like Buck walks out. So hey, not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. But then I was like, all right, this is cool, nope. So then back to elk hunting.

Speaker 3: 1:18:47

You know, like three or four years ago, my, my wife's cousin, he's from Jersey, he actually relocated to Hawaii, so he moved, he just lives in Hawaii and he met a guy out there who was from Colorado, um, and that guy he's between colorado and hawaii also, but he grew up hunting out there and he's a guide. So I got into their outfitter you know it's not a big public name or anything but good group of guys um hunting. You know a mix of private that's public adjacent. So it's just a really sweet spot that we go to Um. There are a lot of hunters around like driving in, like you know, a day before, uh, archery, elk opener, there's trucks everywhere, there's dudes everywhere. But yeah, we, we go there, we hunt, um. My first year. I didn't see anything until like day three or four. And uh, a legal, he's. A satellite ball, wasn't a big bull? Uh, four by five walked out. I was actually in a tree stand over a wallow and interesting.

Speaker 3: 1:20:00

Yeah, so I'm coming down in tree stance yeah, you know, you, you can tree stand, hunt elk, you can saddle.

Speaker 2: 1:20:08

I've seen it before.

Speaker 3: 1:20:09

Yeah, I've seen it before. So that was year one. I'm sitting over this wallow. It's actually kind of an epic experience because they were like you know, mike, you're gonna go sit in the stand today. Do you want a harness? And I was like, oh, and I had seen like one of those kind of like seven foot, like two person ladder stand somewhere. So I was like, oh, like that seven footer. You said yeah, yeah, like sure, whatever. Yeah, I was like no, I don't need a harness for that.

Speaker 3: 1:20:42

Anyway, we walk out, walk up the mountain like three miles, get to this place and I'm like where's the stand? He's like it's right over there. And I look there's like three aspens and this like 20 foot, like 18 foot, whatever single person ladder stand going up into the into these aspens. And I'm like, oh shit, wish I brought my harness. But I didn't want to be a little bitch. So I climb up and I get set up there with my bow and hang my bag and then my buddy who's guiding me. He went somewhere behind me and just hid out in the bush and there wasn't really anything doing. Like you heard distant bugles this day this is like the afternoon. He does some cow calls. There's really like like nothing going on. And out there you know you're hunting the thermal.

Speaker 3: 1:21:27

So the wind is coming down the mountain and I'm up in this tree and I'm already sketched out like really wishing that I had a harness. I'm like I need to stand and see if I can even draw my bow back and I try to stand up in this thing and the like the safety bar is like below my knees, right. So you get that feeling where, like this is just this isn't a safety bar, it's just a lever just to make sure that if I do fall, I'm like going like head first to the rocks below. So I'm like, let me try and stand. So I try to stand and I'm so fucking nervous my knees just start shaking. The whole ladder stand is just shaking and rattling and just making noise. So I sit back down. This is like 10 minutes in. I'm like, fuck, I remember thinking like I just hope nothing shows up, like because I'm not going to be able to shoot. Like this is a disaster. I wish I had my harness and I'm there for like two hours. I'm just getting cold.

Speaker 3: 1:22:26

Now the wind is blowing down and then, sure enough, at like four I don't know four thirty I forget what time, it was still plenty of daylight left. It wasn't like an epic, like last light thing. But I see movement up the mountain. Something's coming down like okay, it's an elk, it's a bull. And I'm like, oh, but it's a spike. We're not shooting spikes. So I'm like, cool, I don't have to worry about this, I'm just gonna sit here, not fall out of the tree, I'm gonna try and stay warm.

Speaker 3: 1:22:54

And as the thing is walking down, um, you know, I can start to see more detail on his antlers and I'm like, oh, it's not a spike, actually, but I don't think it's illegal. And then he's getting closer and I'm counting and I just get into this rhythm of, like you know, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, five, and like my biggest fear, like I'm a total rule follower, like the last thing I want to do is like shoot an illegal buck, and I'm just counting, like over and over again, as he's walking down. Then finally I'm like, fuck, that's a legal bull. All right, what are you gonna do? Like people, a lot of people would love to have this experience. You don't have a harness, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:23:37

Ultimately, I decided like I gotta, I gotta try, like if I fall out of the tree and get hurt and die, I'm an idiot, I should have worn my harness. But I come up with a plan. And this bull comes down and he takes a drink first and then he like turns around pretty quickly and he just lays down the water. He's actually wallowing. So I'm like huh. And when he's wallowing he's looking uphill, he's not looking in my direction. The wind's perfect, everything's perfect. So I come up with a game plan. I'm like all right, I just need him to get up, like take a couple steps over this way and look that way, and then I'll have like a great quartering away shot. Stand up, don't make noise, don't be an asshole. And I did it. And then, sure enough, that bull did exactly what I like wanted him to do and I drew back shot. I actually shot a little bit low and it like clipped his like his humorous, I think and ricocheted right up into his heart.

Speaker 1: 1:24:41

Nice.

Speaker 3: 1:24:41

And so Wow, wow, and so I shoot him. He runs like 10 yards and stops. And now my guide like knew what was going on, so he threw a cow call out and that bull with an arrow sticking out of its heart like turns and looks for that cow. That was wild, that was my first experience seeing something like that. And then there's no cow, can't smell anything, doesn't see anything. So he starts walking back up into the back up the mountain. Another cow call, he stops and he's looking for the cow and then he wobbles right and another cow call he's looking, then he wobbles again and then he just fucking crashes down yeah, that's something you've seen with alcohol.

Speaker 1: 1:25:25

Oh my god that they act like they're not even like aware that they got hit. They like you know. It's like they don't even notice yeah I wonder if it's because they're so big, I wonder well, I think moose too.

Speaker 2: 1:25:38

I think moose do the the thing. They're just so big that like I don't think they really realize, like yes, they'll, they'll run and stuff like that. But deer are gone, deer just yeah, they're bare was booking it?

Speaker 2: 1:25:50

yeah, you know, but but they're also. They're so much smaller too than you know. I know, then, what a moose and a elk would be and I wonder what it's like like. I know people have shot grizzlies and I know grizzlies can get up to a high speed of rate as well, but you know they're, they're much bigger than a black bear. So, like you know, we've talked about peyton's bear disappeared. Like you would think, this bear did not run where he ran with a grizzly they had, like I just feel like they're just too damn big to not notice something like that.

Speaker 3: 1:26:22

So the bigger the animal, I guess maybe the the the difference of, of tracking or the reaction of of the other reaction like me also their nature just just to be clear, I still consider myself a very amateur like El Conor, like I by no means like know everything, but the thing I've observed, like you just get away with a lot more Except know everything. But the thing I've observed, like you just get away with a lot more, um, except for getting winded, like if they wind you, you're done. But a little bit of movement, a little bit of motion, you can get away with it. My sense with like white tails, like no, a little bit of movement, they see you, you're, you're done, right.

Speaker 1: 1:27:00

Like yeah, you're toast their eyes locked onto you until they decide to run away like that's a lower level of wariness, yeah, yeah, I guess there's like a grade to it right where I would consider turkeys probably number one on terms of don't like it.

Speaker 2: 1:27:18

I'm getting the hell out of here and then, I would say, at least in my experience, white-tailed deer are up there and then so yeah, there's, there's, but that makes sense though yeah, if you think about you're going from, you're going from turkey, the smallest, to to deer, a little bigger black bear I've had black bear encounters where they just don't give a rat's ass, especially with the bigger, bigger males, um, and then you go into the elk and the moose, like those are the bit like not many things are hunting them.

Speaker 2: 1:27:49

Obviously you have wolves, so if they get a, they get a smell of of wolf or something like that. Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna hightail it out of there. But for the most part, like there's lions, yeah, and and also, you gotta remember, elks are usually in herds like yeah, you know, so they have safety in numbers where, yeah, deer, you can get them and stuff like that. You know, especially out Midwest when you're, it's a little harder because there's just so many deer in the field. But you know, hunting, where we do like you can easily get into a nice thicket and one deer pops out, there's a lot that you can get away with as well.

Speaker 3: 1:28:23

One deer pops out you there's a lot that you can get away with as well. Yeah, the the only thing I'll I'll say that maybe counters that point a little bit. I think I feel like new jersey bears are different than wild bears out west because the like I've had bear encounters and I I took a bear in the same area last year, but those bears see you or catch when they're gone, like they don't want to see people that's true, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:28:49

So yeah, you are right about that, because I mean, I've still yet to see a bear in me. Yeah, but that's yet again. It's like the deer here. People ask me like, hey, you know I I got asked yesterday by, uh, by matt. He he was at our um event the other day and he went out scouting with us and shooting and stuff like that and he's new to hunting and he was like how much do you really worry about your scent? And I said, honestly, I can get away with a lot, especially if you're hunting an area that has houses nearby or or there's a hiking trail or whatever the case is. Um, it's not a end-all be-all. It's not breaking my hunt.

Speaker 2: 1:29:26

Now, if I'm hunting a mature buck, do I still want to play the wind and everything correctly? Yes, a hundred percent, sure, but I have had big bucks. I've had does that are just so used to human scent that it doesn't matter which way the wind. And it's the same thing with bears. Like we have the most densely populated bear state with. You know when, look at how many bears humans are are encountering in our state alone. They're used to it. You know that we they're, they're used to us, they're used to our presence, so I will actually I'll agree with you on that. Um, you know, I'll definitely agree with you on that, because in maine, 30 years and still seeing zero black bears in New Jersey Gosh, the numbers is insane.

Speaker 3: 1:30:11

Yeah, so the other two elk I killed in subsequent years, even last year, like we kicked this elk up while we were hiking out and we spooked him a little bit. He ran down the trail, he stopped and was like looking at us trying to figure up while we were hiking out and we spooked him a little bit. He ran down the trail, he stopped and was like looking at us trying to figure out what we were, and we just played it cool and I got a shot off at like 45 yards, wow, um.

Speaker 2: 1:30:34

so yeah, I don't know, they have a different tolerance yeah, um, that is interesting because you do that to deer, like deer will run and you know, know they'll eventually look back, but when they think they're at a safe enough distance, um, you know, I've had deer that that do come back and stuff like that, but they're just on higher alert after that and that that's pretty unique. Um, how, what was you know I, I know you, you got one more story to tell with with your, with another elk, but the black bear story from this year, like how that go down, like what's it like hunting a? You know, you said they're way more skittish and everything like that being out Midwest, but what was that like hunting a bear up there?

Speaker 3: 1:31:15

Yeah, so there was, like I don't know this. There was a carcass I don't know if it was a deer or an elk or what it was that we found and, um, I sat on it one morning after I shot my elk over by, uh, where these dudes were hunting. So I, I don't know, I'd never hunted bear, like alone in an area where, like there's a good likelihood for me to get one. So I went with these to this other part of the property where these guys were hunting and, um, I sat near this carcass and, sure enough, like 30 minutes later, there was a freaking bear on it and I, I I wasn't sitting with like direct line of sight to it because of the wind like the wind was really messed up that morning. So I sat there and I was listening and I heard something, and so I I got up and I tried to stalk in on this thing and I like peeked my head around and at the same time, like it lifted its big ass.

Speaker 3: 1:32:14

Like they're black bears, but it's a color phase bear like so brown and it like looked at me, we like looked at each other at the same time like peeking around this thing, that thing just took off like a bat out of hell. Like I don't even think it winded me, it just saw a little bit of movement. It was gone. I went back. I had the same encounter probably maybe the same bear like the same thing happened like an hour later. I tried to go a different way. Maybe it was a different bear. At that point, I think I got winded. And then in the afternoon, walking back out on the way out, the wind was perfect. There was another bear there and I snuck up behind it like 10 yards and I was just waiting for it to turn. Then it turned and I shot it. Perfect shot, sick. Yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty wild.

Speaker 2: 1:33:06

Get that, folks that's a to what. So that's that's two days in a row, get getting something. Yeah, yeah, elk and a black bear. Wow, that's it.

Speaker 3: 1:33:17

That's service reader a trip yeah, it's a good time out there, man. It's just, I mean, you know where, where we're hunting, like it's public land, but access is an issue, like it's hard to get there if you don't have access through that private and there are just so many animals, I don't know yeah, like I don't I want to get out, like in the next couple of years.

Speaker 1: 1:33:48

I want to get out west and yeah, and try my hand at it for sure, uh, in the next couple of years, yeah, but um, I guess one of my questions would be like what's next on your radar?

Speaker 3: 1:34:01

I know you mentioned adirondack buck and like adirondack buck okay, super exotic, yeah, hard as fuck man yeah no for sure, the deer density is like deceptively low.

Speaker 1: 1:34:15

Um, you mentioned the hawaii thing. You had a buddy in hawaii, yeah, and the first thing that something's been on my mind for a long time and something that I want to do is access deer.

Speaker 2: 1:34:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:34:26

Hawaii. I would love to do that.

Speaker 3: 1:34:30

They do that and they have pigs and access deer, yeah. But yeah, he texted me a couple of weeks ago. He's like, yeah, you know, my wife gave me the night off for the kids and my buddy was hunting on a different Island. I always get the names of the islands mixed up out there but yeah, he hopped on a boat, went over there, shot a doe, I think. He told me he like missed three or four.

Speaker 1: 1:34:51

then he finally shot a doe and, um, get it back on the boat, go home yeah that's like no tags are like just open season, because they're invasive, right yeah, yeah, I think a lot of that stuff like I think you can hunt goats, I think you like like wild. I think they have wild.

Speaker 2: 1:35:10

Yes, they do yes, yes, yes they do yeah, there was a episode.

Speaker 1: 1:35:15

Yeah, yeah, and you can shoot, like I've watched on youtube. People shoot like full-size bolts, like not bulls, like bull elk, like like a pbr bull, you know that's so sick, though, like that's like well, you know, but it's like people used to. I think it was like people explorers used to just drop animals off on these islands in the pacific, so that's when they came back they'd have food yeah, so actually there's a field ethos guided hunt that I was like, oh man, I don't know, maybe I'll pull the trigger on this.

Speaker 3: 1:35:46

One Might still be open, but it's in Mexico and it's for, I guess, like fighting bulls, right, like either they release the fighting bulls and now they're just like free range and however it works, but you can go hunt fighting bulls, which I guess it's equivalent to cape buffalo, right, dangerous game, and then uh, and then some kind of sheep I forget what it's called.

Speaker 2: 1:36:15

I don't know about the bulls. I would definitely, and now I probably would try to hunt one of those bulls, but I don't know, just using the word fighting bull just makes it sound so much like more dangerous. Like I'm just thinking of those, those things that they do down in like the in south america and everything like that. Where that's what I'm thinking about is like having a whole bunch of people, the bulls are just running through the streets and you just gotta like gotta try to kill. I know that's not what they do, but like that that'd be pretty cool to watch, that'd be that'd be pretty cool to participate in.

Speaker 3: 1:36:46

Like the running of the bulls. I think they're not to be too much like of a I don't know. But field ethos is like I think they're talking about arranging like a running of the bulls trip, like that's the kind of shit they do.

Speaker 2: 1:37:01

They'll do wild shit like that yeah that's insane gone wrong on that, yeah I'm always like, wow, these people are like, but that's what they do down there, like that's yeah, that's like if, if we lived there, or like if where we lived.

Speaker 2: 1:37:17

Had that it would be, we'd be like, oh yeah, like let's go do that. Like you know, this is, this is a part of what our culture is. But, like man, yeah, I give them some credit. And I give those guys credit who, um, I think in indonesia and those places, drink the snake venom and they make like the alcohol, the snake venom. I me, I don't know, I feel like it would be my luck that I have like a cut somewhere or something like that and I drink, I drink some and then I freaking die, yeah yeah, I don't know about that one.

Speaker 2: 1:37:47

I'm out on that for sure, yeah, definitely, uh, mike, we got a few oh, go for it we. We got a few more questions paint. For some reason, our, our lag today is just a little like delayed on.

Speaker 3: 1:38:02

I don't know what that is as a tech guy I was gonna comment well, why do you use teams?

Speaker 2: 1:38:08

we, we're probably going to be switching. That's just what I've been using um just with, because you know we use microsoft, uh and everything like that to schedule a lot of our stuff. So that's just been the like thing that I use. But I think I'm going to be using um stream yard from now on.

Speaker 3: 1:38:25

I haven't used street yard, I've used um Riverside river.

Speaker 2: 1:38:30

I've. That's another one that I've heard as well. I've used that as another one but yeah, man fire.

Speaker 3: 1:38:34

Away.

Speaker 2: 1:38:35

Um, now we're at our, our, our portion of our, our quick questions and your dream hunt and I know there's a specific deer that you yeah, of course. Would that be the same thing like your dream hunt, two weeks anywhere could be any animal, anywhere in the world. Money is not like an option. What would it be?

Speaker 3: 1:38:57

I'm thinking about alaska can be a combo yeah yeah, alaska moose and caribou interesting one that's not super but no, but that's the and that's what people always ask.

Speaker 2: 1:39:17

Like no one has ever asked if it could be a combo, and but they do that. Like that is a thing usually when you go for one, you're getting something else. You're getting a brown bell, you're getting a wolf, you're like, if you're gonna go for two weeks, and I mean this is.

Speaker 3: 1:39:32

You know, if I had two weeks and I could do those two things, I would. I don't even know if seasons overlap or geographies support that, but yeah that's a great question.

Speaker 2: 1:39:42

I don't know, I because they are two different. Like I do think they're two different and right now we got Turkey sitting right in front of our camera.

Speaker 3: 1:39:51

If you put a gun to my head, maybe pick one. It would probably be Alaskan moose. Sorry, my phone's ringing.

Speaker 2: 1:39:56

No worries.

Speaker 3: 1:40:00

Are you a snacker in the woods?

Speaker 2: 1:40:01

on that.

Speaker 3: 1:40:05

A little bit, yeah what would be your go-to snack the crinkliest motherfucking wrappers, these little expensive peanut butter protein bars. But those are my go-to. One day I'm going to like open them freaking before I go out in the woods, put them in a Ziiploc bag or something I started doing that this year.

Speaker 1: 1:40:26

Yeah, I did the reusable ziploc. They're like silicone. You get them from amazon and, uh, they're silent. You can like, shake them and there's no noise. It's even quieter than the ziploc yeah, what?

Speaker 3: 1:40:40

what's the current like best solution for coffee drinking in a tree?

Speaker 1: 1:40:45

I don't drink coffee, so um, you could, uh, I have a, so I've got this yeti bottle with the big one. Uh, they make a smaller one that I also have. It's like an 18 ounce. Um, that would be loud if you hit it on your stick. You could just wrap the whole thing in stealth strips. I've thought about this too, because I usually run coffee in like the yeti. Um, with the mag slider lid yeah and that's a no, so you're gonna spill that on everything yeah this, that is like this is tight, tight, that's airtight yeah um and uh.

Speaker 1: 1:41:24

So that would be one um, because then I think if it's like hot coffee, I don't really want to put it in something plastic.

Speaker 2: 1:41:31

Yeah no, definitely not reservations about that.

Speaker 1: 1:41:35

So I think that would be the only way and then just wrap it in like steel strips. I buy this, I just used it today but, um, camo veterinary wrap and if it's something that, like, you don't need because it sticks to itself, uh, they make like real tree veterinary wrap and it's not like you can just wrap a thick layer all the way around and just pile it up until it's like a pad and that works pretty good. Um, if you don't, if it can, it only if it can stick to itself. It's like stealth strips sticks to anything, but it's like, it's like athletic tape where you can have you've wrapped your ankle or wrapped your wrist or whatever it has to stick to itself.

Speaker 3: 1:42:13

Yeah, all right, stealth, strip wrap the Yeti, that's smart.

Speaker 2: 1:42:19

I'm going to have to do that. I'm going to have to do that.

Speaker 2: 1:42:22

Yeah, me too, I don't drink coffee, but I drink hot chocolate or tea. I'm a big tea guy. Yeah, I don't need the extra chamomile tea. No, no caffeine, because I don't need the extra freaking caffeine. I do not have it. I do not have caffeine in my day. Honestly, I just I'm good If I start getting tired, I take I'll take like 30 minutes, I'll just chill and then I just get another burst of energy and I'll. I'll run with that probably for the rest of the day, even if I've been up like in a hunt I'll burn out at when it's bedtime. Besides that, like for the most part it's eating, only time when I get the itis, that's when I start to get a little tired.

Speaker 3: 1:43:11

But besides that I could run all day. So I just I just heard from someone for something like he was relaying a story of some famous outdoors woman. She puts uh like caffeine pills and painkillers in her first aid kit. So like, if you do get, if you're in a jam and you need to get out of the woods and you need some energy, you crush those caffeine pills, that's smart though.

Speaker 2: 1:43:25

Yeah, that's smart, yeah, that's, that's a good one we should cover that too.

Speaker 1: 1:43:29

On. Like what I, I've been meaning to start keeping a first stage yeah, I used to situations and I need to get back on that. Uh, meat eater did a thing about, like, using tourniquets yeah especially with, like that, some of the three inch expandables that some people carry you slip trip land on that yeah it's not like uh, you could pretty easily see how that could happen too, you know strip you'd be surprised like I get more worried about my climbing sticks yeah, also that slip or like a line breaks or something silly like that happens, because I know a dude this is not hunting, he's mountain biking but he crashed on his mountain bike and his handlebar impaled his femur and got his femoral artery oh he survived but he was like banged up Very close.

Speaker 3: 1:44:24

I mean I fell out of the tree stand.

Speaker 1: 1:44:26

This year I fell out of the saddle. So yeah, I fell. The crappy platform kicked out. I was running a different platform than I am now. Now I got the tethered predator locks in much better, but I was running a, a hawk helium. I don't know what it was. I'll only speak bad on it because it almost did me in.

Speaker 2: 1:44:50

So yeah, he had a pretty nasty bruise it kicked out.

Speaker 1: 1:44:54

I was like going to tow it in and I was stepping on the top. It kicked out and, uh, I hadn't fixed my tethered rope yet, which was on me.

Speaker 1: 1:45:03

I should have done your lineman's belt I still had the lineman's belt, so I was sliding vertical down the tree, but fast, and actually what caught me was my bridge caught on the top stick and my and right here, so, um, muddy sticks. They're heavy but they are rock solid. Um, they caught me at a pretty good clip, just the bridge caught, and I was just like hanging there like almost like you see, like a whipper on like rock climbing videos. That was me, you know. And like the first, uh, that top like bolt pulls and you see people like lean climbing and they just like, yeah, get crushed. That was me. Um, so I had a nasty bruise but got really lucky, didn't fall more than, like you know, a body's length, like six feet. But, yeah, keep a first aid kit, I'm gonna do it this year yeah, this year yeah, me too.

Speaker 1: 1:45:55

I gotta get back into it a lot of horror stories people getting shot, turkey hunting oh, yeah, that might be the number one is people getting shot, bird hunting, bird hunting, bird hunting and.

Speaker 2: 1:46:06

I'm not running.

Speaker 1: 1:46:07

I will run a gobbler decoy on private land, but you know we've had some issues with small pieces, people wandering lines. I'm even nervous to do that on private land now and run a gobbler decoy. People are nervous to run any decoys. But yeah, people get excited and if it's a realistic looking decoy like an avian x or something like and you're on the wrong side, you get filled up with pellets yeah, no, that's a it's scary thought but I mean, well, let's, we'll do two more.

Speaker 2: 1:46:48

And then you know we're almost in that two hour mark Incredible podcast. We got to get him on for one of our roundtable segments He'd be a pretty good and our our new segment that we're going to be doing our game show. I imagine he would. I imagine he would know a lot of a lot of trivia questions.

Speaker 3: 1:47:06

All right, let's do it. I'm down.

Speaker 2: 1:47:09

If you could get a property in any state, what would it be?

Speaker 3: 1:47:16

Oh man, I'm thinking carefully here. All the states.

Speaker 2: 1:47:31

It's a tough one.

Speaker 3: 1:47:33

Dude, I've like run through like 10 different states already in my mind. I know there's a lot, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:47:47

And I think the show has made me change my answer to be more diverse. Like I think I said, alaska, which I love, alaska, don't get me wrong. But I do want to hunt white tail deer too. And there are moose in other places, there's there's muleys, there's elk no, I've got my answer.

Speaker 3: 1:48:01

all right, let's hear it. That's the answer, maine. No, I've got my answer, all right, let's hear it. That's the answer, maine, all right.

Speaker 1: 1:48:08

Interesting answer. That's a good one.

Speaker 3: 1:48:10

I've only been in Maine once. I've never hunted there. I know you go there, but you made me think like all right, I can get moose, white-tailed bear and I can go fishing.

Speaker 2: 1:48:19

And turkey. Oh, I know you said you don't bird hunt, but yeah, I've heard that the uh, the turkey hunting up there is pretty good too as well, and lynx, if you do any predators, they got lynx and bobcats and bear and coyotes and, yeah, good ice fishing too yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:48:36

I mean, are there other states where you could like, so that, so what's the trade-off? Right like you go to say like Montana, or you got muley deer, you've got elk, you've got there, you got pronghorn yeah, but a lot of private hunting, a lot of private land up there.

Speaker 2: 1:48:54

I mean, obviously, if you have your own state, I mean if you have your own property, it's not a big deal, but you got to have, I guess your property has to fall probably somewhere in line where you can get majority. I don't know how big montana is or what the laws are or anything like that, but I think you would also have to do your research on. This is what I can easily get, like you know what? What's this? What's this? You know? Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:49:18

Miami's another one yeah, I've been so focused on trying to find land in in the adirondacks, like I have a little piece of property with a cabin on it, but I I probably could hunt back there, but it's it's two acres right, yeah, um, but getting like a big track of adirondack land. It's state land adjacent, yeah definitely.

Speaker 1: 1:49:42

Um, I've been kicking around on my list that, uh, I want to answer too, because I've never heard you ask this question. I love this question. Um, you have it really. No, I must have missed these, but I've been dude. I've been having the black hills in south dakota in my head for a little while now and that's another place where you get white tail deer, mule deer, elk, turkeys and, I'd imagine, bears. I'm not super positive. Then the other thing that's really good in South Dakota is duck hunting. I know South Dakota's also got some good inshore fishing. The Bassmaster did a tournament. Now this, I think, is far away from the Black Hills, but they did a smallmouth bass mostly on a Wai' Lake, some lake in South Dakota.

Speaker 3: 1:50:29

How about lions? They probably have lions in South Dakota.

Speaker 1: 1:50:31

They also do have lions. Yes, they do. Yeah, the Black Hills have been really piquing my interest a lot lately. It's kind of a sleeper spot and it's funny. We talked to Mike Chamberlain the other day and he said dakota as well yeah yes, he did yes, he did.

Speaker 2: 1:50:50

Yeah, it is. See, and that's the thing. There's a lot of good states with a lot of diversity in it, you know, and it's you can really it depends. It also depends your hunting style. What you want to do, like maine, I know, can. Maine, big, thick, a lot of woods you're looking at 94, 95 of the state is woods. You can get lost for days and just never, never, ever return. It's hard hunting, it's just so.

Speaker 2: 1:51:11

It's different, like, if you're really looking for that challenge yeah man, especially when you're out in the woods, like if you're obviously living, you know, on the farmlands and everything, like you know, in the beginning part of maine, like yeah, it's going to be different, but going where where we've camped our whole entire lives and where we got a lake house at it's, I mean we're pretty close to texas. I mean to texas, jesus, canada, and yeah, the the winters are are rough to there too. So like there's a lot to balance out. But I, I like that answer too, and I like south dakota's answer as well. Yeah, um what?

Speaker 3: 1:51:43

one more that.

Speaker 2: 1:51:43

I got for you, all right, and I paint, if you want to answer this one too, because I know you haven't gotten this one. If you could, if you could hunt with one person, whether their family, whether they're famous, whether they're they're alive, whether they're dead doesn't, doesn't matter. If you can go on one hunt, who would it be with?

Speaker 3: 1:52:11

All right, I was waiting for Peyton to answer, but I guess you guys are. Oh, sorry.

Speaker 1: 1:52:15

I was, I was thinking, thought I think you did ask me this actually before I was a member.

Speaker 3: 1:52:24

I'll, I'll have to say it's kind of a sad answer, but I'll say my dad, because he passed away and yeah, I don't know, it would have been cool to take him hunting, like just never had the opportunity to. Um, so yeah, gun to my head someone famous, someone from history. Freedom dies unless it's used Is one of my favorite quotes, and that's from Hunter S Thompson. So I think Going out and shooting some stuff with Hunter S Thompson Would have been pretty wild. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:52:59

What about you Payne?

Speaker 1: 1:53:08

Those are two really good answers to top I'm trying to think of. I don't even remember what I said last time um, but yeah, I would think, like, personally, who I'd like to take like somebody that I know. Um, you know I like to bring new hunters, um, but you know, I like I grew up, I guess, hunting with my dad and, um, you know we don't get to do it as much. So I think I would like to take him bear hunting. You know, that's something that he knows, something about that I actually have learned a lot about. So I think it would be like a cool, like switch to flip, you know, like it would be a role reversal where he taught me how to hunt and then I would like you know, because he doesn't, you know there's no bears. And well, there are bears, but not where we are in maryland. So it's like all different ball games. I think that would be cool.

Speaker 1: 1:53:52

But, um, in terms of a historical figure, I just listened to the meat eater book, the long hunters, um, the audio book, and I think it, and that's what I would love to do is I would love to just be a fly on the wall now. There's a lot of conflict with those guys and they get pretty messed up. So maybe if you went in with a little advanced, little advanced defense tactics, but uh, um, I think you know hunting thosealachian Hills, like with the long hunters when there was still elk in the Appalachians there was still whitetails, bears, wolves, lions, like all that, when the Appalachian used to be like the Rockies in terms of like density of wildlife.

Speaker 1: 1:54:35

So I think, like going through the Cumberland Gap with the long hunters, that would be pretty sick.

Speaker 3: 1:54:42

You know there used to be elk in New York state up until like the 40s.

Speaker 1: 1:54:45

Yes, yep, yeah I think they're starting to reintroduce, which is good. Um, virginia, I think, had their first season not that long ago. Uh, kentucky's got a pretty good population. I think north carolina is going to reintroduce. Maryland voted against it actually. Uh, the land landowners in Western Maryland, which is kind of a bummer. Pa's got a population. I wouldn't be surprised if New York is and some of those states are coming up. I think there's another state, west Virginia. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have them. They're going to be close. The Virginia population is on the West Virginiaia border, so I would be surprised if west virginia doesn't have some um but you know it is a small populations.

Speaker 1: 1:55:30

It's like, I think, virginia's once in a lifetime draw, but you know it's growing and you know later in our lifetimes. Um, you know it boomed pretty quick. I think it happens quicker than people think with some of these booms, if they're managed properly. So you know, by before we're gone, hopefully, you know, knock on wood there'll be a more readily accessible huntable population of elk on the Appalachians. Again, hopefully, Hopefully.

Speaker 2: 1:55:56

I believe Maine tried doing it and they just could not survive with just how thick Maine was, and I think they might have been a long long time ago, but I think I remember I was a little kid, maybe in like middle school, and my uncle was talking about it. Where, you know, they tried introducing elk and it's just a different ballgame. Moose can just get through that thick, nasty stuff they can.

Speaker 3: 1:56:21

They just barrel right through it, where the elk they can't so this past year hunting in the adirondacks, I heard a moose call. I don't know if you've ever heard one like that. Wow, not a put no.

Speaker 2: 1:56:35

No, usually when we go it's in the summer, so they're not really. Yeah, they call them like that, yeah it was pretty wild.

Speaker 3: 1:56:40

I was sitting up on on this knob, like uh, on a saddle, um, I was gun hunting, you know, obviously looking for whitetail, and I was throwing some grunts out there, but then I just heard that like long, like nasally, like call from in the distance. It's pretty wild. I mean, yeah, it was obvious. But a lot of people up there say like there are like more moose and white tail in some areas. Really, oh yeah, and I'll come across rubs like freaking, like chest and face high and I'm like huh, that's a big deer, you know, I'm like huh that's a big deer, you know so.

Speaker 2: 1:57:27

But man, mike, I got I got to thank you for for coming on. It's been a been an absolute pleasure having you on and listen to you talk, and you know there's there's plenty more to come from you, Definitely.

Speaker 3: 1:57:38

Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you, peyton, for throwing my hat in the ring. Thank you, mike, for having me on. I'm sorry I couldn't get to the game dinner yesterday or this weekend. I had like a different kind of conference I had to go to. But next year that's at the top of my list to hit up as well and see everybody Definitely.

Speaker 1: 1:57:57

We've got the summer event coming up.

Speaker 2: 1:58:01

Yeah, we'll be doing the summer one again, if you can make that there. Yeah, all right, absolutely I'll be there. Was that the first time we met?

Speaker 1: 1:58:08

at the no, I met you before my yeah, mike, that was the first time I met you, the and I that was not.

Speaker 2: 1:58:14

That was the first time you two met, though yep yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:58:17

So I was at the archery shoot right at yeah, yeah black river.

Speaker 2: 1:58:21

Yeah, you plan on doing that again. Oh yeah, I'll bring my bow, definitely.

Speaker 3: 1:58:26

That was painful.

Speaker 2: 1:58:27

I was like just to sit and watch and not compete. I think what we're going to do, because the summer's it's different, because I think the skeet range is only open Monday through Friday- you can do it before Memorial Day, you'll be okay. When's Memorial Day again? Be okay. When's Memorial Day again? I don't remember to do another event this quickly 28th. Yeah, oh man.

Speaker 3: 1:58:55

Well, we'll see, we'll see we'll see thank you guys and like, really like, it's really cool to watch what you're trying to do with the brand and how you're trying to grow and anything I can do to help, let me know and definitely like thank you thanks for doing what you do thank you and thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:59:15

You know we appreciate it and we'll we'll definitely be talking and you know we'll we'll get some things going and you know it's it's it's fun doing this and fun meeting all the all the new people and you know it's been a pleasure so far and you know can't wait to see what's to come absolutely alright guys cool.

Speaker 1: 1:59:33

Appreciate time Mike thank you guys.