Cold Open And Podcast Mission

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Every hunter has a moment when the woods go quiet. The air shift and time slows down. And in that stillness, you realize you're not chasing the game. You're chasing something bigger. Welcome back to the Chase the Unknown podcast. Where we go beyond the sound past the show cameras and deep into the stories that fuel the fire. The show is for the ones who sleep over the rut. We hike miles into the public land for just a chance. And we live for that shot before the shot from the backcountry to the back roads. We sit down with hunters and trappers with the relentless stories. We live for the thrill. Embrace the unknown and return with the stories we're telling. This is more than a podcast. This is a start of something real. Let's chase it.

Meet Zach Hansen In Rural Idaho

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Welcome back, everyone. We are pleased to announce our guest for this week is Zach Hansen. Zach, welcome to the show. Give everyone out there who don't know who you are a quick introduction. Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Well, first off, I love the introduction to your podcast. That's awesome. That gets me fired up. You know, just watching it. So great setup for a great conversation. But for those who don't know, I'm Zach Hanson. Um, I live in rural Idaho, a little town of 35 people at the end of an 80-mile dirt road. Um, I think the best way to describe myself as adult onset hunter, I didn't get started until I was close to my 30s. Um, and then I really went full bore in and you know, I identify more as a trapper than anything else these days. But yeah, that's kind of the the 30,000-foot flyover.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yeah, no, I real real quick. So, like something, you know, that I I've always wondered because the Midwest, like especially those areas like here, Wyoming and everything like that. Have you noticed like an influx of of people just starting to come over um into this these states and everything like that that were for the longest time were you know, kind of just left alone and now just people just starting to come in. And were you born and raised in in Idaho, or did you find yourself over there too?

SPEAKER_04 2:21

I mean, like a lot of people, I'm an expat. Um, I'm from South Carolina, that's where I grew up. Oh, wow. Um, so I'm way southeast, is where I'm from originally. Um, made my way to Idaho via Louisiana, actually, um, in my late 20s. Um, I was in Louisiana before that. But yeah, I mean, to answer your question, yes, 100%. Especially in like the metropolitan areas, like where we're at is very insulated. Um, you know, there's 35, 36 full-time residents, and that doesn't fluctuate because there's just no other properties to be bought, um, frankly. And you do notice over the summers, though, you know, the past seven years have been out here, you know, there's a lot of people moving to Boise. It's a very hot real estate area. And the Boise National Forest, the Salton National Forest, like it's all within striking distance. So you see people with their fancy side-by-sides and stuff like that. But if I'm being honest, like the areas where I hunt, the areas where I trap, like it's all wilderness area, non-motorized. So there's very few people out there. Like, even at the height of the summer, like, you know, you might get some through hikers, but there's no other trapper, or very few other trappers. And you know, most of the hunters out there are horseback hunters.

Adult-Onset Hunting And Food Control

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Ah, okay, okay. That that's pretty yeah, and that's something completely, totally from like you wouldn't catch anybody in New Jersey, or really, I'd say majority of the places around here, you know, people hunting on horseback and everything like that. But that is like when you look back, especially those old school movies and everything like that, and they're traveling up with you know with horseback and they're hunting, you know, bears or or mountain lion and things like that, like that's usually what you see. And I like that would be like a a pretty cool hunt to to actually do. But you know, you you also said that, so you you got into this whole and later in life. What what age did you kind of start uh getting into the outdoors and hunting, fishing, and and trapping?

SPEAKER_04 4:21

So for me, you know, I grew up in the southeast. So hunting, fishing, not necessarily trapping, it was always on the periphery. Like, you know, I grew up in a semi-urban area, and you know, I had plenty of friends in high school who hunted, and you know, there was always like that click, you know, that it was always around. But for whatever reason, my family didn't hunt, my granddad didn't hunt, so it just wasn't in my family, and it just wasn't something where I had a close enough friend who's like, come and experience this thing with me. And I just didn't have an interest. So, you know, my ex-wife and I, we were always athletes, like I did competitive jujitsu and wrestling for so long, and my ex-wife did too, that we were always kind of looking for an edge from our diets, from our workouts, all that good stuff. And my ex-wife's family was a hunting family. They were from Middle Tennessee. So at one point in my late 20s, probably 27, you know, we were kind of getting into that phase where we're like, well, what are we putting in our bodies? Looking at like the meat we're eating, and you know, start hearing all the buzz around like, well, you should be eating maybe game meat. It's the highest, like the leanest, highest protein count content, all that. And that's what got me curious. So when we went home for Christmas one time, you know, her dad, you know, they had some private land, so they were stacking a couple of doughs every year and maybe a buck here and there. So they had a freezer full of meat, and they're like, well, take as much as you want, take some home. So we took some home and we started cooking with you know deer meat that I had not shot. And it was great. And then that's the thing that kind of started the flywheel of like, oh man, I am fully reliant on a system that I have no control over. And like the light bulb moment for me being like a white-collar worker was you know, I didn't have kids at the time, but I had this vivid memory, or it's a memory now, but I had a vivid vision of like, man, if everything just failed, if there was no food at the grocery store, I would have to pray that a deer jumped in front of my car, that I hit it with my car, and then I'd have to put it over like a fire or coals, and then hope I could pull something edible off to feed my family or they would die. And that was really the tipping point. Like after the nutrition thing, it was like, I have absolutely zero self-sufficiency skills. I am fully reliant on someone else to provide for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, it's and and that's so common. Like, obviously, being you know, being outdoors and everything now, like you know, you see everyone like everyone you kind of associate yourself with, yeah, they're they're outdoors and they can do it. But you look at just our country just alone and the reality of it, of how many people depend on going to the grocery store, and that's kind of what you're taught. Like, we've we've now we went from a country that's you know, that yes, you honey was the thing, fishing, trapping, you know. Obviously, you look at the fur prices back in the day and everything like that, and um, you know, just how the the world was to to now, and everything is just manifested to to go to ShopRite or whatever your local grocery store and get whatever processed meat, um, you know, to get uh fruit from there or or um vegetables to to soda to to everything like that. It uh you know, nowadays they don't even teach kids how to how to change attire anymore or or to do any of those things, workshop and all these things in class. And it's like we went from a fully uh functioning comf country and then just moved away from that. And the food, I mean, what the last since probably COVID, everyone is talking about the food and how bad the food actually is for, and that is a lot of ways that uh the hunting community, the outdoor community, has grown also because it's like wow, we're we made a mistake. You know, we we used to do this, and now it's like you know, it's now it's it's it's novel.

SPEAKER_04 8:27

Um yeah, yeah. But you know what's interesting about that comment though, so you know, not not to do a plug here, but I just had a new book come out called The Trade Gap. But it it covers the history of vocational education in the U.S., which started with agricultural education back in 1917 and kind of hit its peak in the 1960s, um, where you know, we had woodshop, metal shop, you know, everybody probably knew how to field dress a deer to some degree, or at least was exposed to it at some point. And then in the 80s, there was a paper that came out from the National Education Commission called A Nation at Risk, and it talked about our lagging numbers and science and math, which is good. Like, you know, that's a good fair statement. But what happened on the heels of that is they took all of the federal funding from the shop classes, wood, metal, any vocation, and redirected it to STEM and started building computer labs. And, you know, it's an interesting thing. Like you said, like no one really knows anymore. And like I feel like I am the perfect example of that. Because I was born in the late 80s, went to school in the 90s. I never saw the inside of a wood shop, metal shop, never learned how to change a tire. Like, you know, I learned stuff from my dad because he was hands-on, which is great. Like, I learned a little bit about like sweating pipes and things like that, but you know, nothing in school. And then as you went further into when you and I were probably coming of age, there was a No Child Left Behind Act, which then incentivized all teachers on SAT scores, which was all college prep. Yeah. And in my schools, and I'm sure this was at like 99% of the US, like, unfortunately, there was a stigma that said if you went to one of the technical schools, like for any of the vocations, yes, yes, yes, it was for the dumb kids. Yes, which is not true, but that was what was being pushed on us. And then what happened is, and you'll like this stat because it goes to what you said about a nation full of skillless people, myself included here. I want to be very clear about that. Like my graduating high school class, there were 3.3 million graduates across the US. 67% went to a pay-to-play two or four-year institution, meaning taking on student debt at a high interest rate to learn, you know, some like learned valuable stuff, like maybe went into medicine, something, but the majority of us did like political science, myself, philosophy, you know, higher modal learning things that were allegedly going to have jobs on the other side. Um, and as we turned out, like when I graduated, it was right in the recession and things never changed, or things never reset, rather, and there were no jobs. And so when you have 3.3 million people graduating high school, 67% going, and only 7% going to trade schools, like there are so many people who've just lost basic skills. Yeah, and that is our nation right now. And like I got lucky where I had that moment in my like on a plane where I was like, oh my God, I know nothing. I can't change the oil in my car, I can't provide food for my family. If the thing in my like sink where I turn the handle and water comes on and off goes out, I don't know where to source water, I don't know how to clean water. Like, useless. And like you said, that is so many people, and a lot of people don't admit it, but that's a majority of our cut, our country.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, no, I and that was perfectly said because you know, now looking back at it, it's right, you know, that that tech school, like it was for the bad kids, the the the not smart kids, the kids that and honestly, now looking back, I wish I went to that school. Like I would have loved to do that. Like, that's what I I like to be hands-on. Like, you know, I had my grandpa and everything like he showed me how to cut the grass and how to do certain things. There was a lot of things I still didn't get a chance to to learn because he he has to win everything like that. Um, my sophomore year. Uh, but there are certain things like yes, I know how to change a tire, but I didn't know how to change a you know the the oil, and that is such a huge thing. You just look at it now from my truck to get like done for oil change, it's like a hundred and something dollars, and it's a really it's it actually is a pretty easy once you learn it, it's uh it's bump. But there's uh I I work with patients, I work with kids, and the kids love that. And I tell everyone this, and I will say it every day on the podcast if I have to. And I uh inner city kids, they love hearing about hunting, they love knowing about hunting and the all different game animals that you can eat and everything like that. They have never gotten the chance to learn it, they don't see it. It is so fascinating. It's like a an a like I'm an alien species to them, and they like they'll ask me a hundred questions every time I go like go on a hunting trip. Uh the minute I get back, uh question boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like, oh, how do you do this? How do you do that? Like, how do you even gut an animal? Like, what do you do? What can you keep? And that is like uh that is lacking. There used to be an archery class back back in the day. I never got to take it, but archery was a thing, so was you know, learning to shoot a gun and everything like that. I get it. There's people out there, like whatever, you know. It's uh but archery is that is a great skill because yet again, if something happens to our country and we can't make these whatever, that is a a traditional skill that can help you survive and help your family and loved ones survive, right?

SPEAKER_04 14:17

And it it's no one wants to paint that doomsday picture, and you know, neither do I. And like I'm the interesting thing is I'm not bullish on things going completely off the walls. Like, you know, we saw bits of it during COVID, and that was like I was two years into hunting at that point. Yeah, I started in like 2017, 2018, yeah, and I had a freezer full of my own deer meat when COVID hit, and I was successful, like, you know, I see people freaking out, oh, I'm good. And I have this skill now, you know, a budding skill, but I had a skill that like I felt okay. Like I didn't ever have like a nervous, like, what are we gonna do? But had I not gotten started two years earlier, I'm sure I would have been like, I don't think I'd be beating up someone over toilet paper, but you know, I'd probably be a little more defensive over my chuck steak at the Walmart when you know I didn't have any other means of supplying that food for myself.

The Disappearing Trades And Lost Skills

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, yeah. No, I I I definitely agree. Um, you know, so well, what I really, you know, there's a lot of things I want to talk about. What what was the first book that that you just so where did the idea come? You know, you you started hunting um 2017, 2018, you know, you you become this outdoorsman, you you're now you know hunting, trapping, everything like that. Where did the idea even come from? Like, all right, you know, I I want to write a book.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Well, I mean, man. I have to go real back in the piggy bank of my memory because you know, my grandfather, who died when I was younger, he was a bit of an outdoorsman. My mom's dad, you know, I wasn't very close with him, but he had a cabin in Georgia, nor like North Georgia. And I always loved going to visit him. And I remember he always had this, like, this is one of the one thing that I got when he died was his a frame picture of a wolf. And, you know, I ironically I'm a wolf trapper now and wolf hunter, but you know, that was like my spirit animal. I had read Call of the Wild, and I was just enamored with wolves and that kind of component of the outdoor, not hunting, but I remember my granddad hunting, and he would go on these trips and I'd see pictures, and I thought it was cool, but I never had a big interest. Then there was literally nothing until like my mid-late 20s. And that's when I just again, it was there was no big moment of like, man, I want to get out and hunt. It was purely for performance for jujitsu and you know, a means to an end. And then finding my ex-wife's father, you know, being a hunter, like I started to tap him as a resource. I started getting more curious at like family get togethers. Um, the her family is pretty funny. They live in, like I said, rural middle Tennessee. Shout out to Shelbyville, Tennessee. Um, and we'd go back every year and they would have a sponsored squirrel hunt. And one of the years, like the first few years, I'm like, this is the dumbest thing in the world. And then I like tagged along and I saw that they like donated all the meat to the local shelters, and I was like, kind of cool. And then that was when I was starting to think about other sources of meat. And then it was just all these little things in that time span that kind of added up. And my father-in-law was really open to me wanting to learn, and he's like, Well, you should start like pig hunting because we were in Louisiana at the time, and I was like, Well, I'll give that a whirl and got a hand-me-down bow from a friend that was like two inches too short on the draw length, and you know, started going after it. But, you know, to answer the second part of your question, the book was not something I had in mind. Like I've always liked to write, and I've written like articles and stuff like that. But, you know, post-COVID, post-moving to the middle of nowhere, like a lot of people want to do, like just uprooting yourself and moving out nowhere somewhere and going full bore into both hunting and trapping. That's what spurred the book. But you know, the experience and the reason why I got into it was purely a performance-based thing for me and my family.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, yeah. Wow. And and that's there, there's so much. I mean, we we definitely are gonna get into the into the wolves and and trapping wolves and everything, but like especially for bow hunting, like I to get a bow that's too is too short for you, and to to bow hunt hogs, like what was what was that like? You're so that was your first animal that you that you went after were or hogs down in Louisiana with with the bow that's too small for you.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

And usually technically, technically it was Arkansas, but so here's the story like what happened was I got a hand-me-down bow. We were just tight on a budget and everything. And my ex-wife, she was like, Are you really gonna be into this? I'm like, I'm gonna be into it. Like, you know, I think anybody who's getting into hunting knows. Like when you feel that bug bite you, like I knew at the time, I'm like, I'm screwed for life. Like I hadn't even shot an animal or a bow. But just like kind of around the periphery, like seeing under the hood of like what hunting is and like you can provide for yourself. I knew I was toast. But, you know, we were tight first. So she was like, Well, you know, your friends hunt, find a bow. And so I got a buddy to send me an old Matthews single cam and some arrows. And I built a range in our backyard in Louisiana, and I'm also like, I'm the individual, I am never good out of the start. Like, you know, there's people who are naturally good at things, like from like the first time they pick up a gun or a bow. That is not this guy. Um same with wrestling, jujitsu. Like, I'm good, like I'm very good. However, it's taken me many years to get there. Like, I need to like focus and be okay in a space to like screw up, and like I will screw up. So I built a range in my backyard and I had a spreadsheet that talked about how dorky I was, and I just shot arrows every day. Now I dry fired that bow like within the first two weeks that I got it. Like, you know, every single thing you could screw up, I did.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Um you're not supposed to do, you did.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

100%. Well, you know, there's something to be said for that. Like I I am also the guy who has to touch the hot stove, probably more than once. Um, that's just me. Like I anybody who says otherwise, like, good on you. It's not me. Um, so I learned on my own, really, like a lot of YouTube videos. There was a plenty of resources at the time online, uh, thankfully. And then I started to be okay. Like, you know, at 15 yards, I felt pretty good and then bumped back. I don't think I went beyond 20 or 25 yards for that first year. Uh, and then I just found like a little bit like talk about like difficulties of getting into hunting as an adult. The things you don't think about. The legality around hunting is kind of daunting when you have no idea what's going on. You know, like Louisiana is a pretty open state, but like New Jersey's not, others are not. But even in Louisiana, like, like, what do I need to do? Like, do I have to go do this like field day to get a hunting license? Like, none of it was obvious. And like the Louisiana Department of Fish and Game or whatever it was sucked. Um, so eventually I like landed on this rinky dink outfitter out of North Louisiana, South Arkansas that was riddled with pigs. And I called the guy, I'm like, well, what do I need? And he's like, Ah, you don't need anything, just show up. I was like, okay. Uh hindsight being what it is, who knows if it was legit or not. And but$200 later, I was out there hunting pigs with my bow.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

That's that man. That and that's the depth, and that's what you you love hearing. Like, I'm the first one in my family to bow hunt. So I kind of, besides dry firing, like I kind of had like the The kind of like the same thing. Um, you know, I I can't even say that I really picked it up fast either. Like there it was a huge trial and error. And I think, you know, bow hunting is just that one thing. It's just it's difficult. It is difficult. There's so many things that can go wrong, as a lot of everyone who's listening, probably like, yeah, there's right. But it's that trial and error. It's like the minute you get it in your hand with a bow in your hand, or and you fire that first arrow, it's like, oh you feel like it kicked, man.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

You're like, man, I don't need anything. Like, blow it all up. I'm good. Like, yeah, of course, you're not when you're first starting, but like that feeling is what you get, is like this true feeling of independence when you let that first arrow go.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah, it's it's it's and I imagine you feel like that trapping too, because trapping is that is that old style, like, you know, type of thing that what everyone used to do to back back in the day. And it's it gives you a real connection to to nature and to to this earth, and you know, like like you feel like a caveman. I mean, obviously, some things are a little more high-tech nowadays and everything like that, but it's like it brings you back to to those roots and everything like that. Um, you know, and it's it's a perfect, you know, real segue to you know, your book, uh turning feral uh as well as it goes through, you know, when moving from your lifestyle that you had to now more into this outdoorsman, you know, lifestyle. Um at it was published in 2002, but when when were you writing, were you writing this the whole entire time? Like when same thing, like this is just your whole life story. So are you jotted? Are you someone because I'm me, I'm a nerd, and I know you you did this. I jot notes. Like I during hunting season, my notebook on this thing is just covered with just notes about you know the season and the hunt and and how I feel and how things went. Is that kind of like the same thing for you as well?

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Um I'll be honest, actually, I'm not as much of a note taker on like like on the mechanics of like the hunt. Like, you know, like hey, yeah, you know, this I blew this elk because you know I was upwind or blah blah blah blah blah. But what I have found is, and you know this, like the feelings you get as a hunter, whether you're in a tree stand or whether you're spotting stalking elk or you're calling in wolves or you're trapping, those hours or days that you get to do that per year, are something that is largely indescribable. And what it for me, it was started as an exercise afterwards, like after these hunts. Like again, I was all new to this, so like these feelings were probably heightened because I hadn't been doing it since I was 12. And I wanted to try to capture them, and like I'd always written and journaled, so I was like, I will write. So like I'd go on, like my let's say my first elk hunt, you know, first archery elk hunt. You know, we were putting like we put like 60 boot miles on, we were on horseback, you know, it's first time I'd really seen wolves in an area, and like there was just so much that went on. I was like, I have to capture this, like I can't just let this go. Like it was an awesome experience. I could hold on to that, but let me write it out. So the book, again, I never had the intentions of writing the book, but I had started to write like stories about the hunts that I did, like antelope hunting with my bow and you know, eventually trapping and all these things. And I would just write little anecdotes or little stories about it because it meant a lot to me. And then, you know, the idea of like, well, maybe I should just put this in a book, you know, with a through line of like, hey, like I was a very dissatisfied person with what I was told to chase my whole life, which is what we talked about earlier: the go to college, get a job, get your white picket fence house, be happy. And I wasn't happy. It was like, I always say it's like the dog who's chasing a car and then catches up to the parked car and he's like, now what the hell do I do? That's how I felt. And then the hunting was just something that was an outlet for me, and you know, I had the chance to move to a you know, the middle of nowhere. But ultimately I found community, which was kind of like the you know, the tie-off of the book. You know, I moved away to get away from people and ultimately found like a closer community than I'd had anywhere else. But there was no, I didn't set out to write a book. It was just me reflecting my own experiences as a new hunter.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah. And you know, during this, you know, something that hunting gives everyone is I shouldn't say everyone, but majority of people is it it takes us with how we were raised, like the whole conversation that we've been having, you know, and it reprograms us to you know, discipline. Hunting, you need to have discipline, you need to have mental toughness. You know, you have to grind in these just conditions that it could be too hot, could be too cold, snowy, and and and things like that. Um, so it's mentically mental, physical. Um, you know, for me, it helped my anxiety a lot. And you know, uh for me, I love the outdoors for for the health, the mental health aspect of of it, and also physical health and and everything like that. But uh we kick back just to to what our our ancestors did. And you know, I I know we've said it a few times, but it's one of those things that's just like I I want uh some new people who who don't hunt to to listen to this episode and to to listen to to the words that we're saying and be like, hey, you know what, like this maybe this is exactly what I've been looking for this this whole entire time. Like it may be tough, but I think it's it's a hundred percent uh necessary for everyone uh to try to uh uh do or or learn, um just for many of those reasons.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

And yeah, I'm a hard-headed individual, like I think there's a lot of people who might get the idea and then get stuck. Like there it's like the good old boys thing. Like, man, the hunting industry is so interesting. Like, I've been kind of deeply rooted in it the last three or four years, like on the the business side, right? You know, on the talking to like the hunting influencers, things like that. Like, there is this like weird me not you feeling in a lot of it, like you know, like there's like we don't need any more hunters, we don't need this, like you don't need to be into it, or you know, if you wear sitka, you know, you know, you know the answer to that question. If people don't, you can Google it, or like cue you, or pick your hunting clothing brand, and you know, it labels you as like what kind of hunter you are, which is the dumbest thing in the world. However, that's pervasive in social media, and that's where people usually are getting their first tastes of hunting, and it's can be very off-putting. And I think it probably prevents a lot of people from really diving in. So, like, my words to people would be like, if I can do it, like I am a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal, like it you can do it, and you can find like that it doesn't have to be the big, like, I mean, don't get me wrong, I like this style of hunting, but like the big boots on the ground, 60 miles grinding to find elk in the backcountry. Like, it doesn't have to be that. You know, you can find the plot of land and sit in a tree stand and have just as great a time and find food for yourself. You could do, you know, small game hunting, you could get into trapping, you could do rabbit hunting, quail, whatever. Like just find something that kind of tickles your fancy or you think it might, and start there and find people who are not blowhards, pardon my French, and uh you know, find people to mentor you. And that's the way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I I think you know, you you hit the nail right on the coffin. And you know, another thing like social media does things great a lot, you know. But you're right, some people will see that, or you know, maybe people of of color or you know, women, or you know, somebody who doesn't look like your your typical hunter or outdoorsman, that's very off-putting. Um, I was very fortunate to to have family, you know, do this on my mom's side, um, and and everything like that. And um, they grew up in Maine. And yeah, you know, at the end of the day, like they're a mix. So, you know, that side of my family does happen to be white, you know. But, you know, my my dad's side of the family, you know, they all fish and do stuff. They don't do what I exactly do, you know, but like they they've they've supported it. And you know, I've seen now more of a growth in, you know, more of that minority group, especially, you know, big, big and a lot of women have been getting into the outdoors. You know, my fiance now shoots her bone. We're looking to get her her first deer and everything like that. But like you said, it is very mis not misleading, but it's such a overwhelming, I guess, feeling that you the first thing you look and it's like, all right, I got a brand new 3000 bow and I have to shoot a giant animal, um, you know, and I have to wear this type of clothing, it and it has to be like that, you know, or if it's a bad shot, I can't tell people that it was it was a bad shot, or or I missed, or, or something like that. Where no, like that that's hunting, like that's just that's okay. You can go to Walmart and you can get a$15,$30 outfit. Yep. Or you can listen, if you want to go get a three or four hundred dollar outfit, you know what I mean? It's it's all okay. If you shoot a spike buck, it's who that's okay. Yeah, and that's something that needs to be promoted, promoted more. Um, you know, and I I do feel like our especially our our crew and like you know, you I mean you guys too. I mean it that's that's a big part of you know what you guys do, and also giving that that comic relief, and you know, it's there's a reason where the you know you're with the you know the okayest hunters and look at the first key word, you know. Like it that that's what it is, and it's supposed to be like that to show everyone, hey, this is what it's really like, and it's okay to to mess up, and it's okay not to have you can have Mitch Match and Camo as long as you're out in the woods, that's all that matters.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

And I think that's the ability to just laugh at yourself. Like, I think that's like goes back to the blowhard is like, yes, to your point, like hunting breeds discipline by design. Like, you get in, you might not be that serious, and you might go out for your first season of whatever, and you're gonna learn fast, like, oh, if I want to be good at this, I have to be disciplined in at least some areas. Doesn't mean you need to go out and run necessarily ultra marathons to be the best. Like, sure, that will certainly help you, like being efficient in the mountains 100%. And like, I you know, that's the funny thing, is like I tend towards that side of like the fitness, like all that stuff, but it is not a prerequisite for being a good hunter and having a good time in the woods. And I think like you said, that comic relief, like if you get into hunting, like all these guys and gals who maybe have been hunting their whole lives, like there's recency bias you lose. Like, I'm sure they did some dumb stuff as kids or even as you you miss shots, but it is blunted as a kid because like, oh, you're just a kid, you're learning. But then people who get in as adults, like those misses hurt a lot more, like the ego. But if you can just objectively look at it and laugh, be like, oh yeah, I'm no Cam Haynes, like, whoops, like you know, two inches over the back, and then I re-knocked and I sent it two inches under. Great. Looks like I need to hit the drawing board and practice a little more. Yeah, but then you get you know, you get haters in the comments are like, Well, you shouldn't even be out in the woods if you can't hit a deer from 15 yards. Like, screw you, like you don't know the situation, and you know, you never know. But again, those things can be off. Wild.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, it it's what and I'll tell you for somebody, you know, when I practice, I practice at 60. Yeah, you know, 60, 70. I I like to, but my whole idea of bow hunting is if I could take a five-yard chip shot, like that's that's what I want to do. But don't get you wrong, like those really close-up shots are they're a little nerve-wracking because they're so close. And yes, at the end of the day, like I've seen people I've missed at 15 yards. It's like, oh, like this is gonna be easy shot, like, no problem. You let the arrow go, and it's like, what happened?

SPEAKER_04 35:26

It just disappeared. Like, did I shoot it?

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Right. Well, how how is that even possible? And you have to laugh. It's like, oh my god, like I just took the world's easiest shot and I missed. You know what I mean? But if a deer is at 30 or 40 yards, you smoke it.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Yeah, well, yeah, it's funny. I like in and you know, I hope that's what people have picked up from the book, is like you know, I'm a little self, you know. I can laugh at myself, but like the first time I was on an archery out hunt, called in a big, like 300-inch bull, like beautiful bull, beautiful bull. And he came up, he was completely broadside, like 30 yards. But you just talk about like the little things, like until you like build reps, I had misranged. I had hit a limb either before behind him, or you know, I guess it would have been behind him because I had time, I dialed in my bow, thought I had it dead nuts, sent an arrow two inches over. Beautiful bull. It would have been a bull of a lifetime, and it would have been my first elk. And then the elk didn't spook. I had time to re-knock, re-range, and send another arrow, and I sent it two inches below his belly, and he was never to be seen again. So, like those things happen, but like you have to be open, like you know, people not that they don't like to talk about the mistakes. And sometimes maybe some people don't make mistakes. I'm sure there's some great people out there who are perfect, but again, not me. And you know, I think talking to people about that, or like you said, like as unfortunate as it is, like wounding an animal, that will happen. Like, this is still the taking of a life, and sometimes it goes flawlessly, and there is you know, a perfect like lung or heart shot, and they drop within 10 yards, but a lot of times that's not the case, it's still very humane, but like there are times like you have to follow up, you have to focus on your blood trails, you have to do all these things that until you're in that situation, you don't know what it is.

Social Media Gatekeeping And Learning Curves

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah. Now, for our eastern people, and I really you're you're from South Carolina, you moved to Idaho. What is Idaho like? Like so, you're able where you live, where you hunt, you know, what does the terra look like? Kind of paint us a picture here. Because I really I really don't know much about Idaho. I've I've never got to go. I've I've traveled all for hockey and hunting and everything like that. I do I do plan on eventually going to Idaho to do a spring bear hunt. Um, but like what is it like?

SPEAKER_04 38:12

A heaven. So we live at the base of the Sawtooth Mountain. So like our cabin's at like 6,000 feet, roughly. So I opened my back door, I have my archery range, and we opened to 3,000 acres of national public land. Like I've got the National Forest Service sign in my backyard. So out my back door, I can hunt deer, elk, um, trap for fox, coyote, bobcat, uh, marten, wolf, beaver, otter. Um, yeah, we have some moose running around, but we know if that's a once-in-a-lifetime tag here. We have mountain goats like right where I hunt too. So we run into those, but that's also a once-in-a-lifetime tag.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Um, so I mean, literally, like, and that's why it was so great, and like what really beat down the learning curve for me. Like, where I move, like pretty much almost every single North American game animal, whether you can hunt them or not, I'm having interactions with them.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

And mountain lion, too. Yeah, of course. We got a lot of mountain lions.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Man, that is, yeah, that's a that's a hunter's paradise.

SPEAKER_04 39:22

It's phenomenal. And like, oh, and bear. So, like, my first animal I shot up there, I shot a bear off my back porch in my underwear um with my bow. But like, you know, we have 19 or 20 different bear in and out, like between spring and fall baiting, you know, like there's just a lot of bear that come in and out, and it's uh it's literally everything. So yeah, no, no, no complaints from this peanut jelly, but of course not, of course not. Um the terrain is tough, like, you know, like you go out of my backyard and like 400 yards straight line distance across like a ridge, it'll still take me like 30 minutes to get over there. Like there's big dips and then high elevation gain. Um, you know, because we go up to close to like the range around us goes up to 10,000 feet. So even from where we're cabin's at, there's still like in some areas 4,000 feet of elevation difference, you know, that you have to close in a lot of areas. And it's steep, a lot of deadfall trees from fires and burns in the past, like it's uh not easy going a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Oh my god. I mean, it it sounds like a beautiful place, it sounds a tough place to to hunt and to hike and to do all that, but keeps you in great shape now. What was it like when you first moved there? And you're you know, you're from South Carolina.

SPEAKER_04 40:44

I came from Louisiana, so even flatter is in South Carolina.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

So even okay, so even flatter, what was that like? Your first impression when you when you get to this new house, you know, or even before you when you go to see it, or before you buy it and everything like that, it's like what is running through your through your head at that moment? You're you're a South boy. Now you're somewhere where the mountains are just mountainous and the wildlife is probably nothing that I don't know if you probably nothing that you really seen before.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

Yeah, no, it wasn't because I had not spent a lot of time out in the mountain west. Like it was a uh well, first off, like the scenery draws you in and you feel small. Now, at that point when I moved there, like I already had like envisions of me being Jeremiah Johnson. Like, I'm like, this is where I become a mountain man. Like I it was like I'm like, this is it 100%. Now, what I could not foresee was every single way in which that terrain around me that I had no idea would kick my ass over the next, well, even to this day. Like I had no clue what was in store for me with that beauty. You know, you look at it, and you know, I talk to friends, I have friends come out from you know back east, and um, you know, friends from Texas who will come up and spring bear hunt too. And like every time, like the first times that we go, like we'll be driving in, and again, we have an 80-mile dirt road, and you know, there's huge mountains on each side the whole time. But a lot of times they'll be kind of open and just green with grass and stuff. And I'll be like, hey man, how like how long do you think it would take to hike to the top of that? And people be like, I don't know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, you know, tops, because it looks very inviting. And sometimes I'll stop and get out of the car. I'm like, let's go. And you know, and it's a three-hour hike. Like we won't finish it, but like the the terrain is so yeah confusing. Like you look at it and you're like, oh, that could be I could get up there in like 40 minutes, and it's a three-hour hike, right? Like it's just it's insane, like the depth and you know, steepness and the slopes and like the the buck brush and the scree. Like it's it's wild.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

I I always tell people who who don't, especially people who don't hunt, and I'm they're like, Well, why why are you why do you work out? Why do you walk so much and run so much? And it's like, man, it's it's doing it one thing uh when you're walking on paved roads. It's like, listen, that's that's easy. I go, I tell you guys, once you get into the woods or up a mountain or so like a uh 500 yards, you're like, oh my god, this took it takes way longer, and it it's so much different because I explain to people, listen, you have to bend down, you have to go over trees, you know, you have to lift your legs out real high to to just get over sometimes grass or going through thick stuff. I go, it's it's not easy, and it looks like sometimes the easiest hikes look so simple, but it's like once you start, it's like, oh my like, am I even in shape? Like, what what even happened? And it takes you so much longer than what it typically. And I can only imagine what it looks like in Idaho and what like where you can.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

I got a great example. So like, you know, when we're in Boise, I go to a jiu-jitsu gym, and uh one of the coaches there, one of the black belt coaches, like super great, in-shape guy. You know, you know, he's 27, super in shape, and he's been you know talking to me. He's like, Man, I want to go on a hunt. I want to go on a hunt. So um very last week of spring bear, this was in June. I was like, let's go. We're gonna go spend three days. We're gonna go like on a real backcountry bear hunt because I know where there are some big bears, and we'll go out there and rifle hunt. Again, we go up day one, and like it was my bad for not like orienting because he'd never been on a hunt before. So I'm like, you know, he's just coming to tag along, but super gung ho. We were going eight miles up to an alpine lake, so it was from the trailhead to the lake, it was eight miles. That's something that normally takes me about four and a half hours, and there's probably 3,000 feet of elevation gain. Now we weighed our packs before, and I was carrying a lot more. I had our tent, our hot stove, all that we were going above the snow line in June, and you know, I had a 57-pound pack with my rifle. I had him down to a 28-pound pack with his sleeping bag and everything like that, yeah, and all the food. We got four miles in halfway, and this was before we started gaining elevation. He's like, Man, I don't know. Like, I how much longer? I'm like, don't worry about how long we gotta go. Like, let's just go. And then we started climbing. And this guy, he's listening. Sorry, sorry, buddy, but like he broke. Like, he broke, like one of the toughest guys I know broke, and he's like, We can't, like, we got another couple miles, and we were still like three miles from the lake. He's like, I he's like, I want to go home. I'm like, Well, we can't go home because this hike that normally takes a four and a half hours, six hours, and that's just at the trailhead, not even back to the cabin, much less the four hours back to Boise. I'm like, you're stuck. And so he kind of rallied a little bit, and we ended up just setting up camp. And I was like, man, like, let's get some dinner in you, like, let's build a fire. And I was like, just gather sticks. And he just sat down. Like he was so like he literally had like an anxiety attack. Like, I think like the enormity of where we were, like it was such a big area. We were so far. It was the first time we'd ever been out there. You know, we're seeing wolf sign, we're seeing all this stuff. I think everything just like closed in on him very fast, and this the physical exhaustion. And he's like, I miss my wife. I just want to go home. I'm like, okay, buddy, like if you want to like call it and let's go home tomorrow, like that's fine. And we did. I was kind of hoping he'd wake up in the morning and be like, all right, you know, we're going. But like he was like, I'm done. Like, I'm I'm not going another foot. And like, not to scare people off. Like, this was like a black belt level hunt, you know. And I took him out there, and like I should have maybe done a little bit of more prep work, but it goes to your point of saying, like, these things are hard. Like, it is not just like a stroll in your backyard when you're in the backcountry of Idaho.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

No, not not at all. My one of our guys on our team, he went for his first uh elk hunt in Colorado, and you know, he he admitted it fully on the podcast. Now he went and did a uh pronghorn hunt, I think like the week before. So he went from one state to another, home, far from home, for I think like a couple weeks. But he was like, Man, he goes, We got up on that mountain. He goes, Yes, it was beautiful, it was fun, but I had to leave like a few days early because what broke me was here. It goes mentally, you're you you're drained, you know, you you get homesick, you start missing your family, you know. And he said that was hit for him, that was his chap most challenging part, and that's something that he had to overcome the next time. And now he he's gone up, he killed uh a bull last year and everything like that. Uh for the last year that they had uh over-the-counter tags in in in Colorado. But it's uh it's not easy when I go to to Maine, and as much as I can, the closest thing I can do is is is talk about Maine for where that, where we're in the middle of nowhere, like there is no self-service. Usually there's I can walk into Canada, literally. Like we take a dirt road in, there's no nothing. And you know, when I bring people up there, and once they really see it, it's like it's beautiful, but it's like, oh my god, like, well, what if something happens? What if something goes wrong? And it's like, no, like you you can't think like that. Like, you this is what we do. Like, let's go fishing, let's go for a hike, let's go, let's go moose watch, like let's go, let's go shoot our our guns. Let's you gotta do something, you gotta keep yourself moving. Because the minute you sit down, and what that guy did, you know, you're like, hey, go go like collect sticks and everything.

SPEAKER_04 48:59

You just sit down, that's where it's like, oh my god, like and then you're feeling where you're at, and then you're like, Yeah, or what will kill people, and what I think killed him too. He's like, he asked me, he's like, Man, if a bear shows up, please do not shoot it. He was like, The idea just the idea of having to carry any more weight as far as we did, like like legitimately frightened him. He was like, Yeah, like I will pay you money to not shoot anything that comes here. I was like, eh, we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

But nothing changed, it didn't matter. And that's why, like, I think when a lot of people, and it for him, like there is nothing to I would like saying, there's nothing to be ashamed about because there's a lot of people who don't, I don't think, realize what how you need to prepare for these these actual hunt. And you know, what yet again, one of our other guys he killed a uh one of the guys that we know um killed a bull last year, but he's going, he loves it. He's going back, but he is grinding in this whole entire time. He's working out, he's he's rocking it every single day. You know, there's things that I think he has sick a cell, so I think he has to prepare a little different different and keep himself hydrated because he'll cramp up up an obviously the the higher elevations. But these are the steps that we're taking, we're talking about earlier of like you have to prepare yourself and do the correct things to do, you know.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

But going back to one of your original points, though, like you can read all about it, you can prepare as great as you think you can, but until you go out there and experience that first time, you're never gonna really know. Like, and maybe you do prepare perfectly and you get out there and you're like, Oh, this is exactly what I expected. My body's ready, I'm ready. That's a one in the million, good on you. But most people like your friend and from the network, like he goes out there and he's like, Holy shit, like this is this is different. But now he's back and he's training. Like, now I know how to train, I know what to expect, and like the mystique is taken away a little bit, and then you can focus on what you need to focus on.

Idaho Terrain Reality Check Stories

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yeah, you know, it's man, I'm I'm praying, I'm gonna be pre, I can't wait till I book a trip to like Alaska too. That's gonna be another complete different challenge for in itself and everything like that. But that's something I know once I eventually get there, like that's something that I'm gonna take like a year to to prepare for and everything like that, just because and I'm probably I'm still not gonna be prepared because like once you get on the ground, it's like, oh my god, it's it's a it's a complete different thing. But that's what makes doing what we all do uh addicting. Like you are chasing that uh feeling right there. It's like, oh my god, like for like for us, why we came up with with Chase the Unknown, because there's so much unknown, you know what I mean? It is um you have no idea the books that you you've written that just talk about separating yourself from the norm, the life that we're supposed to live here now, go to work, you're you go to school for four years, you you collect that you you know for us, it's you go work in finance in New York City. I'm not far from New York City. You know, that's what you do. Going to to the middle of the woods is not on the agenda. Going to chase uh all these different animals and just uh be among nature and to push yourself mentally, physically, everything like that is not what is in the agenda for our generations, like how we grew up, you know.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

It that's not what's and like I hope what I'm about to say might become like the uh you know, the the clip out of this podcast, if I can articulate it well enough. But like what I would hope for for our generation and any of the other generations on the periphery who like have kind of followed that same path of like go to college, collect the debt, do your finance job, get your house with your white picket fans, is that at least around me, too. It kind of goes back to the trades. Like when I grew up in the south, like the people who hunted were like more hillbilly, like redneck, like, oh, that's like either something that people do because they need the meat or what whatever. But there is so much intellectual stimulation in hunting. Like if you read like Ernest Hemingway, or you read um you know, old stories from Theodore Roosevelt, like there is a lot of intellectual pursuit that goes into it. And I think if people like that have kind of gone that highfalutin route and think themselves better than now and want to live in the city, like even if they open their aperture to go on like a quail hunt or something basic, like I think a lot of people would find that it actually broadens your horizons instead of closing it.

Why Hunting Feeds The Mind

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Yeah, yeah. I I I agree, I love that. One thing people always ask me, I don't know like how much, you know, obviously now you've you probably surrounded yourself with a lot more, you know, outdoors than as you as you've grown it in this um in this uh in this world, but something for me, like we're talking about, I think I can't remember before the show or during the early part, is I work in inner city, and you know, a lot of my my staff and they'll be like, When what well what what's hunting about? Like, what do you have to do? And I'm like, well, I started going through things like, wow, I didn't know. I'm like, yeah, well, I was like, I didn't even tell you about thermals yet. Like, we we we tell you about thermal, and when I tried to explain to them what thermals are, they just look at me and they're like, uh, what like what are you even talking about? Like, I had no idea that it hunting was this complex. And I go, uh it is, but it also isn't. Like, for me personally, I am going like I am uh I'm hooked on it. Like, I want to learn every single detail about it, like from its history to animal behavior. Like, I want to know about uh, you know, every single food option that they have and just grazing and what their their natural diet is, to you know, the well, how the moon phase plays and everything. Like it's like a scientific thing. I go, but I go, you no, you don't have to do that to be successful. What we talked about earlier, you don't need to go buy the brand new$2,000 belt. You don't need to but if you do, great. If you don't, so what? So, like I want to I clarify to that you don't have to do it that way. But me, I am that obsessed about it and I love it that much that that's what I that's what I did to take the it can be as deep and complex as you want it to, or it can be as simple as saying, like, I need to kill that deer in my backyard. Yeah, definitely. Now, before we wrap up, because we're about to hit the hour, and we yet again we're we're gonna have to get you get you on and schedule an another one and dive because there's so much that we even get to talk about. Like the problem with keeping these shows to an hour is like you there isn't you you get caught down these rabbit holes, where everyone hears me say that I think almost every episode, but it it's uh wolves. I don't think anybody that we know, and yet again, trapping for us, it's something that I I I want to say people are starting to get back interested in, especially with with the turkey populations and and managing stuff, at least here on on the east coast and and everything like that. Um, so I that's something I really hope really takes booms off in the next uh couple years for for outdoorsman and and conservation. But um wolves. What what is it like trapping wolves? Like, how does that go? I imagine it's got to be a very difficult thing of how intelligent these animals are. Um, kind of give us like the whole rundown, if you can, on you know, the rules uh for for that and and how you go about it and what it's been like to chase these magnificent animals.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

Yeah, well, well, first I'll do a little plug for my own podcast, the OKS Trapper. So if you listen to the OKS Trapper podcast, you can go listen. I've had a few conversations with some of the better wolf experts in Idaho and Montana, Paul Anzac, Justin Webb, I've got Rusty Kramer, who's the first guy to ever trap a wolf in Idaho, um, on this next week. So there's a whole litany of people, if you like, are very curious about wolf trapping. Now, my kind of 30,000-foot flyover is like, first off, I wasn't, I knew when I moved to Idaho, it was to pursue big game animals because I had started bow hunting, I had shot a deer um with my bow at that point when I moved out here. So I wanted to shoot elk, antelope, you know, all the big game. And it wasn't until moving to this tiny town where I was like, I was doing the I'm gonna call it douchey, the douchey like hunter mode of like, you know, I'm training, like I'm doing my mountaintop fitness, you know, I'm doing like burpees in my front yard in the middle of nowhere, shooting my bow. And some of the old timers obviously saw me doing this, and they're like, well, that's great. But they're like, you do know like that's only the season for elf, like, you know, two weeks out of the year if you're doing archery, you know, like maybe three. And I was like, yeah, but you know, I'm focused on it. And they're like, that's great. But like, you do know you could still like become a better hunter and be out in the woods actually pursuing animals more if you were trapping. I'm like, what trapping? I'm like those old cartoon traps with the teeth. And you know, of course, they laugh. Like, that was what I had, even as a 30-year-old who's already into hunting. That's what's been just grained into my head. Yeah. Of course, they explained it to me, and they're like, look, like, there are a lot of creatures that you can pursue in Idaho year-round that need maintained from a population perspective that you can do with foothold traps, with snares, with conobears, which are like the body gripping traps, a whole bevy. And I was like, oh, really? And that's what kind of like opened my lens to trapping. And I started to kind of tag along with some of the old timers and started on the canines with foxes, which is a year-round critter in Idaho, and like eventually moved all the way up to wolves. Now, wolves, like you mentioned, are this just the damn smartest creature on earth and like one of the most amazing animals. Now, we it's interesting because where I'm at in the seven years, I have seen the true impact on the undulate population. Like we've had when I moved out here, there were like two established packs, and now we have five. Like, yeah, and like you can buy wolf tags over the counter in Idaho, like even out of staters. Like, if you came out for a spring bear hunt, you could pick up a$90 wolf tag as an out of stator,$5 if you're a resident, and shoot a wolf. Now, that's great, and especially during deer and elk season, like you always hear and see like one or two wolves getting picked off here and there. But like the only way to really start to control populations is with trappers because we have pretty much year-round trapping. Now that it changes when you have footholds versus snares. Um, you can get the snares later in the winter, but they are so hard. And like I think I've I've trapped like three wolves total in the past few years that I've been trapping them and come very close many other times and like had the opportunity to hunt some too. But like it is by and far the hardest thing that I've ever done in my life, whether intellectually, you know, physically, just the ability to drag a sled seven miles in the backcountry in the snow with a couple hundred pounds of footholds, and then you got to go back and check them every legally every 72 hours, but usually it's every 48. And then you might get a foot of snow over it, and you got to dig them out and reset them. It's just uh it is a chore and a half just to even be out there to have like a 0.001% chance of connecting on one.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Yeah, I mean, uh it's you you hear about how tough it is to to catch coyotes and bobcats here on the east, at least you know, speaking, you know, from from like what I've heard and everything like that. So I could only imagine this this the apex predator. I mean, they're so big, they're so smart, they're very cautious animals from from my understanding. Um, so what what was something when you know when you're talking to the old timers, what was like a key, you know, what is something that they told you that really stuck to you and you were able to to apply it to for yourself and help you uh accomplish that trapping your your first wolf?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:36

Yeah, oh I mean, scent control is one that that's like the number one with wolves, like being like absolutely maniacal with how you're boiling traps, how you're handling them, how you're handling them on your snowmobile or even in your you know a box. Like the scent control is everything because they'll smell it under the snow, they'll smell it anywhere, and they will avoid it. Like I've had wolves in a direct line, like go up to a trap that I thought was like perfectly descent, perfectly hidden, and they'll go up to it, make a 90-degree turn, piss on my trap, and then just walk right around it, you know. So that they know. So the scent control is one, but just as like a plug for trapping in general, like a lot of the people that I have on my podcast either trapped as kids or continue to trap as adults, but a lot of them are great hunters. Like I've had Jim Shocky and other good hunters on, but they all attribute trapping with being the best way to beat down the learning curve on hunting. And that's kind of what the old timers told me, too. It's like if you just want to be a better woodsman, you need to trap. Because, like, yes, you can go out and hunt deer, and yes, when you're doing your like food plots and stuff, like you're following, you're tracking them, but like to get down and see like a beaver or an otter or a fox or a coyote or a badger or whatever, like you have to be maniacal and like watching how they overturn leaves, like seeing their tracks, like where their toilets are, how their habitat is around there, and you study it like a scientist, and then you try to get around there without leaving any scent behind. So you're like crawling on all fours like a goofball, and like you know, changing cotton gloves every two minutes to try to do it. Like again, it's like hunting. You can go as deep into it and be as psycho as you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

Yeah, yeah.

Wolf Trapping Basics And Hard Truths

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

But you can also do it, you know, to a higher degree, but all of it will make you a better hunter. So I think just those two things, like scent control is big, and that helps in hunting too. And then, you know, just the idea that trapping in and of itself will make you a better hunter, a better outdoorsman or woman, you know, period.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Yeah. Now, two two last quick ones, or you know, however long it really takes. Um, you know, I'll I'll guess I'll we'll we'll go with the first one. Um, you know, you hear so much about wolf hunting. It's kind of like our issues here in New Jersey with the bear hunt. It is highly like frowned upon, and it gets a lot of hate, and people are always trying to get it shut down. Now, I don't know what it's like in Idaho, but you do always hear on on you know, somewhere on the news that you know they're trying to stop a wolf hunt. They're true, they're trying to to do this. And obviously, you've seen firsthand, you know, of you had two two wolf packs and now you have five wolf packs, and you know what you really what really needs to be done, but we all know how it works nowadays. You know, a lot of these these anti-hunting groups and everything like that can come in and really disorganize everything that that we all here are trying to do. Have you seen that any any of that type of pressure in in Idaho? And like how much is that like a a worry to for you um and for you know the trapping community there are in in Idaho or states around?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

It's huge. Um, well, first off, like on the ground, you don't see it. Like Idaho is a pro-wolf hunting state. Like you come out here, you go to the grocery store, you buy your tag, someone's gonna high-five you and say, like, shoot them. You know, if they're like local, like they're gonna know like the impacts, and they're gonna be like, go get them, tiger. Um but from like I'm very involved with like our organizations, like the Idaho Trappers Association, Montana Trappers Association. Um, you know, I've been tied in with Dan Gates and everything that happened with the lion hunting stuff last year in Colorado, the wolves in Colorado. So, like, we in Idaho, like we've been hit with many lawsuits by environmental and activist organizations trying to stop the hunt or relist the wolf onto you know the endangered species list. So it's nonstop. So, like for people who have an interest in any recreational outdoor pursuit, like trapping or hunting, like get involved with the organizations that are supporting it. So, you know, we there's a lot you could list. There's a New Jersey. Trapper Association.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:02

Just being a part of those, like for 30 bucks a year or whatever it is, like it goes a long way because those are the people on the front lines, like counteracting the lawsuits, the ones trying to fight for those rights to keep them. Um, but on the ground, no, like Idaho's, like we have a lot of folks from like California and stuff. And like, if I were to walk through downtown Boise and be like, I'm a wolf hunter, like maybe one out of 10 people would like shed a tear, but most would not.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

And I think that's for for us here in New Jersey, obviously being a very liberal state, but for for the bear hunting, the people who are affected by it want it. You know, and I I've gone to a lot of towns and listen, I'm a very proud bear hunter. Um, you know, love bear hunting, it's it's our thing that we love to do. But like one of the couple of the spots that I hunt around on the privates, they they're like, yeah, no, like this is ridiculous that people don't want them. These are not people who are living here. So why are they trying to get a say in what is going on? Because at the end of the day, it's not their families, it's not costing them money or anything like that. You look at the farmers here for us in the cornfields. Like, I you see how much destruction the bears do to cornfields and everything. They literally get in there, they eat and just roll around, and you'll just see these huge, huge circles, and it costs the the farmers millions and millions of dollars in in uh in revenue. Uh you know, God forbid a big big bear goes through someone's yard and there's kids there. Like you you just never know. And the same thing, you know, you always hear with wolves, like, especially for farms and everything like that, and you know, livestock, they yep, they they have a huge uh uh destruction for for that. I mean, losing just one cattle, you know, for for guys who are for families who depend on on that cattle to get to market or or whatever it is, they're they're losing a lot. And it's that's really it's it's kind of like it's a life or death situation because gosh forbid, you know, you have a bad winter or whatever the case is, and you have wolves killing your your cattle. I imagine you hear it, you know, from from the locals and everything like that. Like, we're the ones going through it. Why are you why is somebody who is not here trying to tell us what, and that's just how our our country works and everything like that. And it's a um, but it's it's very unfortunate because like I I kind of expected the people who live there, yeah, they don't may not want, but you need a less in them. Five now having five packs and everyone knows just one pack, their home territory is miles.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

I 100 mile radius minimum that they're just traveling on a 30-day thing, eating multiple elk a day and sport killing elk and not eating them for fun. Like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

And they're correct me if I'm wrong, and I imagine you they're the one they're like one of those animals that yes, they sport kill, so it's not even for for food where you do get a lot of predators that kill for for meat. They kill to for sport, which is absolutely just wild.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:16

On that road, like in the winter, the drove up to our place 80 miles. Like, I'll come up on at least three dead elk almost every time I drive the road. And like my buddy of mine came up on a freshly killed elk that looked like it was just run off the rocks and was left. It hadn't been eaten on yet, it just got run off the rock clearly by wolves that had some nips around his ankles. And my buddy stopped and processed it and got a free elk essentially, which was nice. Wow, you can claim road, you can claim roadkill. Yeah, um, but you know, they they will.

Politics Around Wolves And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

That's that's insane. Um, and and the last one for you, you know, when you when you did track you, you know, your first wolf, what was that like walking up on it and you know, kind of what what the feeling was? And you know, I I think you you said earlier that you know spiritually, I I think you you connect with with Wolf, uh the wolf when you were you're growing up and everything like that. So kind of go through that of like what that feeling was and how amazing, you know, the at the end of the day these animals really are.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:16

I mean, it's a it's a feeling of disbelief, you know. It's like uh especially when it's on a drag and you have a chain and it's like tied up in brush, and then you kind of like start to have that realization, like, okay, it's not a coyote, and you hear it growling, and then you're like, oh, this is a just that real respect of like this is is like when you see one up close alive, like it is like, oh, okay, like this is what an apex predator is. Like that mountain lions, it's like if this thing weren't restrained, like it could, you know, it could kill me easily. Um, and I like gun, whatever, like I wouldn't have much to do. Um, and just like that kind of presence that you're in, you're like, oh. And it was like a puzzle being solved, right? Like that was the biggest thing. Like you pursue it for so many years at that point, and then you have a finally a connection, and it like all comes together, and you're just like, okay, like it can be done. It's hard, yeah, but it can be done. You know, you get so jaded in trapping. I think it's like it is not the sport or recreation for somebody who needs instant gratification, regardless of species. Like, trapping is that thing that takes time and patience, patience and patience, and just constantly being disappointed. It's like empty set, empty set, empty set. But then the highs you get when you do come up on something that you've successfully connected on is like otherworldly.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

So I would I would love, you know, and that's yeah, that it's it's definitely on the just trapping alone is is something for me as an outdoorsman on on the list. I know a couple buddies that they they've gotten their their trapping license and they they've been trapping and everything, and they absolutely just love it. And it does like the one thing it teaches them a lot. But Zach, I mean I can keep going and going and going. We we're gonna have to get you back on. Like, I there's so many questions that I that want to have about trapping, especially, you know, in Idaho, what it's like, you know, and just hunting just in general over there, and just kind of like the different things you do. I didn't even get closely remotely close to what you know some of the conversations I wanted to have with you. But I deeply appreciate everyone. This one has been this episode has been in the making now for I think since like the beginning of the summer. We're now recording uh at the at the end of the summer, and it's just like life has finally like allowed us to to sit down and and talk. And it, you know, I I really appreciate it. I absolutely love the conversation. Um, and looking forward to to the next one.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:05

Yeah, well, we'll we'll we want well, I can't say we won't let life get in the way, but we'll do our best to get a part two, and we can talk more trapping specific here uh here pretty soon. I'd love that. This was a great conversation. I love hearing what you're doing on the East Coast and obviously in the inner city too. Like it's something that I'm passionate about. I think people could get a lot out of not even becoming a hunter, just being outside and even being exposed to hunting. Like just to end on that note, like you said, the people who are not in the rural areas making decisions. The unfortunate part is those most outspoken ones may never be changed, even if you brought them out. But if you look at the Venn diagram, there's tons of vegans, there's tons of people who like would probably actually understand it if they just had an exposure to it. They might not support it, you might not change their minds, but they would be like, okay, I get it. Especially when we have good representatives and people like you know, our age and our, you know, different people getting into it, you know, different you know, groups represented. It does nothing but help bolster the support for the conservation that we're all trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

No, I I definitely agree with that. That was the perfect segue to to finish up, guys. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Make sure you go check Zach out. Make sure you go check out his podcast and his books. Everything is great. If you want to find out more about trapping or you know how to get into it, don't hesitate. Please hit Zach up. You know, I guarantee you he can he can help you as best he can. If he can't, I guarantee you he will be able to find somebody and tell them to to help you out. Um, Zach, I I definitely appreciate it. We'll definitely be talking soon. And you know, I'll we'll we'll see you guys next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:49

Thanks, everybody.